TeerWhat a muck! With the french getting over a long depression, the EF being too expensive, the U.S being unreliable, only the 35 and the Gripen are left.
I like the 35 being a fulcrum fan and all; but the Gripen NG seems v.promising -esp. with the possibility of doing a follow on MCA with SAAB. The IAF gets its much wanted diversification as well. Only trouble is the Gripen’s engine – US made ; perhaps they can buffer this with EJ-200s for the LCAs.
USS.
The Gripen NG is simply not enough against the PLAAF considering the future. We need something heavier, with more punch. Unfortunately (cost wise), only the Rafale and EF match up.
TeerDoes the Indian government have any online petition sites like no 10 here does?
All i found was AK Antony’s email address
Matt Matt Matt….Mr Clean aka AKA is part of the problem, focused on his “clean image”, defence modernisation be …
The sad part is that if you cut away all the independent options such as South Africa’s Denel, Israels IMI, Swedens Celsius etc – the only one left in the room is the 800 pound Gorilla.
When shaking hands with the Gorilla & our fingers get crushed, whose fault is it – the Gorilla’s or the fool who offered it the hand to begin with. Sadly, if recent reports are anything to go by, India is that fool.
There is nothing wrong with having defence relations with the United States or even buying from them per se, but the manner in which India’s strat interests diverge from those of the US when it comes to a certain neighbour…well, that should give anyone sane food for pause.
TeerSorry, not interested in any flame wars…….;)
Hardly interested in any flame war – just stating the facts.
When you state that the facts dont hold up to scrutiny, its worth stating what the facts really are..
That every nation follows its strategic interests & its by far from certain that India’s interests are the same as those of the United States.
Thats the point of what EE Lightning said, what all those statesmen & military leaders said – and discovered.
BTW Read the General Warning Thread.
Read it before you did.
TeerWhy does it help the IAF to have a F-16 with a re-fueling probe? :s
dont get it..
dont under stand why the IAF should go for any of the US aircraft they offer a lot less in terms of bang for buck (allround including tech transfer and less strings attached) than any of the contendors.
and now that the keys to the trophy cupboard have been handed to China by Obama one has to wonder why India should buy US equipment to find it self having its string pulled by the US on behalf of the Chinese.
Will India really get the Aim 120D ??? hmmm
What happens when the Chinese raise “concerns” to the US about selling arms to India? It plays this game with Taiwan very often
Because el prime minister MMS and his gang of sycophants believe that the US is the savior and it will save India’s a$$ from everything, see the manner in which they run to the US after each terror attack as if its the US’s job to protect Indian citizens. Whereas Madame Maino & co, look towards the west to save our primitive, heathen souls anyways and are A ok with it, as long as the hold on power is not interrupted.
And the so called Indian strategic community, which if recent record is anything to go by (including the series of attacks in India without any proportionate response), could not find its posterior with both hands, now claims that buying American is the best way to manage China. Exhibits in this category include Messrs Rajamohan, Subramanyam et al.
These are the same bunch of geniuses in the overall establishment who have never funded Indian programs to the depth they deserved, and hence there were delays – and which were held evidence as “hey, see that didnt work, so lets buy from abroad”. And at the same time, the buffoons in the admin, through a bunch of lame “we are not corrupt investigations” have managed to cut off relations with nations such as South Africa, which could have given us & codeveloped technology with us. The NDA cut off the Pak-SA axis via the Bhim and other programs, and even that effort was destroyed. Never mind, Sweden. So first make money via Bofors & then proscribe all deals with Bofors which incidentally happens to be one of the best in the artillery business, because…its bad for the image.
So all thats left is the US, and its “oh not corrupt” FMS deals.. brilliant. Talk about self goals and unmitigated stupidity.
TeerSorry, such claims don’t hold up to scrutiny! As the US is the Worlds Largest Arms Exporter.
Yeah, I am sure everyone in each one of those links was blowing sunshine & you’ve done convinced me what you said is right.
Sorry Mahathir old chap, you were just leading a nation, Brazilian Brigadier dude, you’re just bitter and UK guys, you’re just mean..pffftttt!! There, that showed them.
And the second line doesn’t mean much. 90% of nations may grin & bear whatever the US says they should do. That doesn’t mean India should go down the same path.
And heres some more evidence of the lovey-dovey the US has for India, when it comes to its strategic interests.
In a new book about his years fighting terrorism, former French investigating magistrate Jean-Louis Bruguiere casts fresh light on those early years after 9/11. At the time, he says, the Bush administration was so keen to get Pakistan’s help in defeating al Qaeda that it was willing to turn a blind eye to Pakistani support for militant groups like the Lashkar-e-Taiba, nurtured by the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) agency to fight India in Kashmir.
Basing his information on testimony given by jailed Frenchman Willy Brigitte, who spent 2-1/2 months in a Lashkar training camp in 2001/2002, he writes that the Pakistan Army once ran those camps, with the apparent knowledge of the CIA. The instructors in the camp in Pakistan’s Punjab province were soldiers on detachment, he says, and the army dropped supplies by helicopter. Brigitte’s handler, he says, appeared to have been a senior army officer who was treated deferentially by other soldiers.
CIA officers even inspected the camp four times, he writes, to make sure that Pakistan was keeping to a promise that only Pakistani fighters would be trained there. Foreigners like Brigitte were tipped off in advance and told to hide up in the hills to avoid being caught
Yup, he’s French. Yup, if we dont believe you, a kitten may cop it…but I’ll take the risks thank you very much. Sorry, kitty.
BTW, the Mumbai attacks were done by scumbags trained in the same manner as described above, so pardon me if I dont exactly brim overful with the milk of human kindness when it comes to deciphering that the US is quite likely to armtwist India as and when it suits the US & its interests.
Everyone does it is hardly an excuse. Europe is nowhere as invested in Pakistan as the US is.
TeerLets approach this another way, what do modern choppers, say the new Lynx Agusta Westland just flew the other day, have over what you propose Flex?
Ie which are the specific black boxes and bells and whistles etc that could be removed without compromising flight safety..
Its my belief – thats why I am asking for data to prove it wrong or right – that the cost is spread not just into some high tech gizmos but throughout the air/rotorcraft, from newer & more expensive composite airframes to new technology in the dynamic system (gearbox, driveshaft, powerplants, rotors etc) …
And hence, its just not possible to “decost” (if such a word exists), todays choppers, which have all these improvements which in most cases, came out of operational needs, for safe operation in demanding conditions.
Teer>>I think it is high time the french come up with some real dynamic proposals
Unfortunately, instead of Arthuro or Kovy types, they must be sending the DARE2s it seems, and consequently lose the entire deal. :p:p
TeerThe fact that the Treasury are allowed to question when the soldiers fire a weapon under the guise of cost effectiveness scares the hell out of me, especially when they hold the purse strings on the only decent procurement system we have for the Afghan conflict, UORs.
Whats UOR/s?
I’d wager the treasury/or ministry of finance in every nation has a spade to poke into any acquisition. What impressed me is that the procurement went through nonetheless, and the Javelin is not a cheap weapon.
TeerIts a tough call as the US fighters provide more “immediate bang for the buck” with readily integrated kit & cheaper costs thanks to large production runs (or so it is claimed). But the strategic pains as you first raised, are simply, very painful.
Ultimately, it all boils down to politics. Unfortunately, India’s decision makers, including some who dont realize its time to hang their boots up and retire with whatever grace they have left, seem to be be running after the US for everything, in the manner a dog runs after a postal van.
That combined with selective reading of the IAF evaluation teams report, which will of course, point out the “its ready now” aspect of the Viper and F/A-18 E/F may give one of these two the advantage and the deal.
Sad, but thats politics (and lack of brains). Some of India’s strategic decision makers are often not the sharpest tools in the kit-box, to say the least, given their history of incompetence in several cases..
We’ll only rue later once the US ITAR forbids every small modification here and there and painful wrestling begins over source code access.
In short, we wont get the best deal for our money, even if it does provide a baseline capability.
TeerAnd here is some remarkable plain speaking directed against the Govt., and which will I presume, lead to greater resources for the fight in Afghanistan:
Lord Guthrie, the chief of defense staff (CDS) when the Labour Government carried out its 1998 Strategic Defense Review, told the Lords: “I believe that in 1998 the Strategic Defense Review was very successful and well put together.”
There was however, one main problem: “Although the Cabinet signed up to it, almost from the moment that Cabinet meeting ended, the proposal started to be unpicked by the Treasury. It was very unsympathetic to defense and, although it was prepared when times were good to give a lot of money to other ministries, the Ministry of Defense continued to come off very badly in comparison.”
The then-chancellor of the exchequer, Gordon Brown, is now the British Prime Minister.
Guthrie also criticized the government over helicopter resources made available for Afghanistan.
“It is unsatisfactory for the Ministry of Defense and Ministers always to say that things are better. They are always quoting percentage increases and the number of flying hours that have been increased. That all sounds very good until you realize what a low state it was in at the beginning. I have no doubt whatever that, with additional helicopters, some of the lives that have been lost would have been saved.”
In contrast, such hard hitting questions were but rarely fielded by Indian Ministers after the 26/11 attacks in Mumbai; let alone questions about why defence modernisation in air mobility for transport of CQB/HRT assault teams & other kit for them was allowed to lag, while the Special Group protecting the well rounded posteriors of our politicians got whatever they wanted.
Our PM now waltzes around in glitzy BMWs to boot.
TeerTo return to topic, when the UK procurement works, it works fine!
1300 more Javelins for Afghanistan to top up stocks, and they didnt let beancounter objections stop them.
TeerUnderstandable. How long does your ultimately take? Ultimately everything is planned nice and idealistic.
It takes what it takes, and planning is fairly realistic with failsafes along the way – things do get delivered & capabilities get built up.
Compare & contrast the IAF acquisition to other AFs which got soyabeans for the money they paid for Vipers (*cough, cough*).
TeerStill, one has to ask if the MRCA is still necessary. I mean there are additional MKI’s on order and soon (TM) there will be LCA Mk II available.
MiG-27 and Jags are getting updated.
And as source for tech… well, AESA tech is provided by Israelis and single crystal blades by the Russians.
Even if India wants western engine tech, this is already obtained via the LCA engine.
Plus the MKI’s already comes with a modern (partly french) cockpit.
Are those additional MKI’s not enough to fill the gap till FGFA arrives ?
The thing is that the MKIs are not cheap to operate, ie the IAF cannot have an 60% MKI force.
And the IAF needs a capability that slots in between the MKI & LCA as well.
And regarding upgrades – theres still the fact that the MiG-27s and Jags will have to be retired, one day or the other & they only have another decade of life in them (the older ones).
The FGFA will take time to arrive. And if there are delays and any slips in the schedule, thats another problem.
The MRCA has to have significant strike and Air Defense capability that if need be, in an all out two front conflict, allow it to be the predominant player backed up by LCAs versus the PAF & along with the LCAs, back up the Su-30 MKIs versus the PLAAF.
This is a gross simplification, but you get the idea.
TeerThats the problem – the Viper and Super Hornet are fine aircraft, but come with enough strings attached to drown users in red tape viz their foreign policy and strategic decision making, to even modifying and using the airframe as they see fit.
A random selection of examples:
Malaysia and the F/A-18: Mahathir Mohammad on F/A-18s & the US:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSjgOcFdI9Y
Brazils experiences with US ITAR et al.
http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/the-dewline/2009/10/brazilian-brigadier-bashes-us.html
UK (and others) tough issues with JSF technology transfer:
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/article-view/feature/67419/uk-leads-growing-backlash-against-jsf-**.html
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/itar-fallout-britain-to-pull-out-of-f35-jsf-program-01587/
Examples are dime a dozen.
And in recent news, the US continues to treat Pak – with whom India may have to war, as a strategic asset.
It is because of this, that the Rafale and Eurofighter appear to be more palatable for an India which routinely modifies and adds new capabilities to its equipment & which may have to use them as it sees fit, whenever the balloon goes up.
TeerA test pilot with wide contacts in the community & immense test flying experience..
I daresay if he had flown the Typhoon, the same lot making these arguements about he was not really upto scratch w/the latest types…would be caterwauling to the high heavens about how the Nasty Rafale fan club was besmirching him, if the same sort of arguments were made..
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