Pretty pic
Description: An AV-8B Harrier II takes off from the flight deck of Spanish aircraft carrier SPS (Strategic Protection Ship) Principe de Asturias (R 11) during an air defense exercise as part of NATO Exercise Brilliant Midas 2006
http://www.navy.mil/view_single.asp?id=39850
hi-res: http://www.navy.mil/management/photodb/photos/061007-N-3888C-001.jpg
Pretty pic
070929-N-4649C-545 PACIFIC OCEAN (Sept. 29, 2007) – Arleigh Burke-class guided-missile destroyer USS Lassen (DDG 82) and Russian destroyer RFS Admiral Panteleyev transit together while conducting an underway replenishment maneuver during exercise Pacific Eagle. Pacific Eagle is a bilateral exercise between the United States and the Russian Federated Navy. U.S. Navy photo by Mass Communication Specialist 2nd Class Chantel M. Clayton (RELEASED)
http://www.navy.mil/view_single.asp?id=51453
http://www.navy.mil/view_single.asp?id=51452
Hi res:
http://www.navy.mil/management/photodb/photos/070929-N-4649C-545.jpg
http://www.navy.mil/management/photodb/photos/070929-N-4649C-148.jpg
enough already!
Then again the Cv 22 looks huge even with their props shifter upwards. How many can Vicky/IAC carry and that would limit the number of fighters i think.
It folds pretty neatly though. Footprint when folded is roughly 6m by 19m. And 6m tall. That’s a bit wider, taller and longer than an stored EH-101 but not significantly so.



http://www.aeroplanemonthly.com/news/Ju_88_and_He_111_recovered_from_Norwegian_lake_news_70131.html

http://www.preservedaxisaircraft.com/Luftwaffe/junkers/junkers88.htm

Ju 88A-1
Werk nr. 0880119
Norway
Status SD
Reg U4+TK, CO+FY, 2./KG 30
Recovered from Jonsvannet September 2004. Aircraft built in 1940. It served for a time with Erg.KGr 4.
There’s a second Ju-88 recovered at this location.
I don’t want to inject myself between you guys in your flame war here but I think the intent originally of speaking about Russia in this thread had to do with the fact that there are people out there, myself included, who strongly feel that the overall poor state of the Russian shipbuilding industry has led to many of the problems with this ship being rebuilt over budget and over time.
Can we please get back on topic?
I’m inclined to agree with that, though would liek to add that the yard we’re talking about are – at least to my understanding – not the most commercially oriented. So, these problems to an extent fit with their history. And while they may indeed experience problems or even be in a dismas state, I think it nonetheless a mistake to underestimate russian capabilities (once they put their mind and money to it)
Well, if you can provide a Goverment source from one of the JSF Partners. That claim or state in anyway they believed they were being ripped off. I for one would love to see it…………..:p
Dutch Audit Court Says JSF Costs Still Unclear, Even to MoD
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/produit/88804_us.html
some causes:
– The Ministry of Defence still has only limited access to information from the principal contractor in the
United States, Lockheed Martin, and this seems unlikely to change.
– Not all the costs to the Netherlands of the JSF programme fall within the project definition used by the ‘Replacement of F-16s’ project organisation.
2006
page: http://www.rekenkamer.nl/cgi-bin/as.cgi/0282000/c/start/file=/9282400/modules/hercb6tb
report: http://www.rekenkamer.nl/9282000/d/p396_rapport_%20jsf_engels.pdf
2007
page: http://www.rekenkamer.nl/cgi-bin/as.cgi/0282000/c/start/file=/9282400/modules/hpwl74z2
report: http://www.rekenkamer.nl/9282000/d/p427_report_monitoring_procurement_jsf.pdf
2008:
report expected to be pubilshed 29 january 2009
14-Dec-2008 : Dutch Government to Industry: See You in Court over JSF
The Netherlands is a notable player in the multinational F-35 program, as one of only two Tier 2 program partners, and the future site of a European maintenance hub. The government is still deciding whether it will join the Joint Strike Fighter’s IOTE phase and purchase 2 aircraft. Meanwhile, what was once a slam-dunk to replace RNLAF F-16s has now become a competition of sorts involving Saab’s JAS-39NG Gripen. To this point, the Dutch have invested over EUR 850 million in the F-35’s development phases.
The financing arrangements involved are highly unusual. They have now become a subject of possible legal action, as the government insists that industry players owe it more than EUR 300 million…
…
“Minister Zalm promised in 2002 that public investment in the development phase of the JSF would flow back into the public purse. In return for an investment of 858 million euros the return would include discounts on the purchase of JSFs – and ‘royalties’ (bonuses) as the JSF was sold to non-partners. The keystone of this ingenious “business case” for the JSF was business. If there was any shortfall, it was agreed in 2002 that it would be covered by industry. In 2002 the ‘hole’ in the business case was estimated at 191 million euros. Internal calculations of Defense now reveal it to be 225 million. Because the whole business case is set to expire by the year 2052, many are still not entirely clear [what the real final proceeds will be].”
[more]
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/Dutch-Government-to-Industry-See-You-in-Court-over-JSF-05202/
So long as costs are unclear, there is no telling whether or not JSF is a ripp off. Of course, the fact that costs are unclear in it self should tell you something.
Sorry, Combat Ships of the World list the ex-Gorshkov with a crew of over 2,000. Regardless, the point is that India has the resouces if she wanted to do so……..
Also, if the Kitty Hawk aquired it would be just a stop-gap until at least two IAC’s enter service. Remember, the ex-Gorshkov is being purchased……….the KH would be a short-term solution if the former was to fall through…..
Kuznetsov = 2,586
Crew 1,960
Aircrew 626
http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/kuznetsov/
Crew:200 officers, 600 Mishmanyyii, 1300 enlisted = 2100
http://www.forecastinternational.com/Archive/ws/ws11019.htm
Kiev class =
Crew: 1600 total
http://www.hazegray.org/navhist/carriers/russia.htm#baku
Complement: 1,200 to 1,600 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiev_class_aircraft_carrier
Crew: 1,200-1,600 (including air group)
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/1143-specs.htm
Complement: 1200 + 400 air wing
http://www.harpoondatabases.com/Encyclopedia/Entry1496.aspx
Complement: 1200 plus aircrew
http://www.janes.com/articles/Janes-Fighting-Ships/KIEV-CLASS-CVG-Russia-and-the-CIS.html
Complement: 1,180 plus 430 aircrew plus 50 Flag staff = 1,660
http://www.janes.com/extracts/extract/jfs/del02678.html
http://www.janes.com/articles/Janes-Fighting-Ships/MODIFIED-KIEV-KRECHYET-CLASS-TYPE-1143-4-CVG-Russian-Federation.html
population does not equal trained crew or even potential crew.
Oh, you obviously know little of politics……………..;)
Ever!
BTW, anyone watch NatGeo channel recently? Nice documentary on the evolution of the carrier starting from the first attempts to lauunch planes off the battleship USS North Carolina up to the present Nimitz-class supercarriers.
USS North Caroline being ACR-12 in this case, not BB-52 or BB-55.
http://www.battleshipnc.com/history/acr12/acr.php
http://www.battleshipnc.com/history/acr12/catapult.htm
I’m a bit baffle by HMS Eagle: greater tonnage than FS CdG yet obviously smaller and only slightly smaller tonnage than USS Midway, which is bigger than both Eagle and CdG.
The Nimitz recently visited a few of the Indian ports, so that claim is not true.
You seem to be suggesting that Nimitz drydocked in India? If so, you are confusing to-dock-as-in-portvisit with to-dock-as-in-out-of-the-water.
Not a single retired US supercarrier has ever found its way into another country’s service (not even UK). Decommed vessels are stripped for spares, kept in storage, etc. Even old Forrestals. So as not to allow opportunities to third parties to gain knowledge of design details.
http://www.hazegray.org/navhist/carriers/us_super.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Forrestal_(CV-59)
Both of you just shut the ^%$ up before you get the thread locked.
motion seconded.
Regardless, I wouldn’t consider the ~40,000 IAC or ~50,000 ton Vikramaditya as very efficient with such a small Air Wing. Remember, the Italian Carrier the Cavour has a max displacement of ~27,000 tons and has a AirWing of ~20-24 aircraft. Further, the Italian Carrier will be able to generate far more sortie per aircraft with the F-35 vs the Mig-29K’s. With the added benefit of having more to begin with…………
So, it obvious to see the winner her in any match up…………..;)
Compared to a conventional carrier like 38,000t Charles de Gaulle with up to 40 aircraft, yes. However, not necessarily when compared to Harrier carriers: similar number of fighters and helicopters but higher performance jets. All depends on the main role IN envisions for its carriers (e.g. providing air cover and adding to task force air defences when operating out of area versus pound the other guys fleet or land bases silly).