WanshanThe US Navy conceived the ‘Arapaho’ programme inthe late 1960s. A container ship would be modified to permit testing of its suitability to operate special mission helicopters. The aim at that time was to allow a significant proportion of wartime convoy escort and sealane protection tasks to be performed by such ships, manned by USN reservists. The Arapaho concept involved an LPD-size flight deck 200ft (61m) long and 64ft (19.5m) wide, and a 4,000 sq ft (372m²) hangar large enough to accommodate four Sea King helicopters. The complete installation weighed 900 tons, and could be installed on a container vessel in less than 18 hours. In 1982 such an installation was emplaced on the 18,000-ton Export Leander, and 178 helicopters landings and take-offs were performed. In the following year the Arapaho equipment was leased by McDonnell and installed by Camel Laird at Birkenhead on the 27,900-ton MV Astronomer (subsequently remaned RFA Reliant) for tests in the South Atlantic. In efforts to exploit the sales potential of the Sea Harrier, which rested largely on its ability to operate from small, inexpensive ships, British Aerospace proposed the installation of ski-jump decks on commercial vessels, and the ‘Skyhook’ concept that would allow such aircraft to operate in the VTOL mode from ships without any form of aircraft deck.
Below MV.Astronomer, one of the ships taken up from tradefor the Falklands War, later converted to take aircraft, and after the war turned into RFA Retainer, the next picture. The picture of RFA Reliant making a bit of a splash is deceptive as the ship is far larger than it looks from this aspect.
As for the fitting of lifts and hangars… I’m surprised RFA Argus, which started life out as the container ship MV Contender Bezant, was dismissed here so quickly. The ship was requisitioned for service in the Falklands War and purchased outright in 1984. After a four year conversion at Harland and Wolff in Belfast the ship entered RFA service in 1988, replacing RFA Engadine in the aviation training role. Since then, the Argus has proven to be a versatile vessel, serving in many wars. It would be the obvious example of a conversion, including of cost and effectiveness.
See also: http://www.hazegray.org/navhist/carriers/uk_helo.htm
WanshanToo close!
It’s not called last ditch defense for nothing 😎
WanshanKing’s College London
Liddell Hart Centre for Military Archives
Copyright: The texts of the detailed catalogues are the copyright of King’s College London and are made available for private research only.
MENAUL 5/5/1-642 Papers relating to military technology for defence, 1961-1985
MENAUL: 5/5/326 1977
“Hughes Aircraft Company press release photograph: artist’s impression of the “Flexar” system, flexible adaptive radar”
MENAUL: 5/5/480 1977 Sep
“Hughes Aircraft Company report: ‘Flexar. An adaptive radar for track-while-scan weapon control’.”
http://www.kcl.ac.uk/lhcma/cats/menaul/mn0505b.htm
L-X radar and the FLEXAR radar
http://www.ll.mit.edu/news/journal/pdf/vol12_no2/12_2detectcruisemissile.pdf
Flexar Mobile Hawk
http://sill-www.army.mil/famag/1981/SEP_OCT_1981/SEP_OCT_1981_PAGES_58_61.pdf
AEGIS is a system that was developped since the end of the WWII with SPG59 Typhoon, SPG32/32 SCANFAR and finally SPY-1 developped since 1969
http://www.strategypage.com/militaryforums/8-6796.aspx
SPG-59/Typhon
The first attempt at an operational phased-array system commenced in 1958 as a US Navy venture. The aim was to develop an extremely advanced surface-to-air (SAM) system called Typhon, which would offer significantly enhanced multitarget abilities than the existing family of Terrier, Thrtar, and Talos systems. These systems, while technological marvels in their own right, were never designed to handle the then-emerging threat of huge numbers of bombers and antiship missiles entering service with the Soviet Naval Aviation (AV-MF).
http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/summary_0199-2902315_ITM
Plenty on Typhon SPG59:
http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/typhonlr.htm
http://astronautix.com/lvs/typhonmr.htm
http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/m-50.html
WanshanThat is wrong and was only a rumour started by the farce magazine. The only known thing about P-28 is that it will 2500 tonn displacement corvette, unlike 20380 which is less than 2000 tonn fully loaded.
Kindly make explicit which magazine you mean with “farce magazine”.
Incidentally 20380 is rated at 1900-2000 tons.
It’s possible that there is no connection whatsever (see P25, P25A: russian designs involvement, but not linked to any russian design.) On the other hand, it makes perfect sense in current trend, looking at how P15 (configuration based on Sovremenny) and P17 (configuration based on Talwar/Krivak) developed.
Do you have better suggestion/ionformation?
WanshanWanshan, look into the “fishing wars” aka “cod wars” etc, the North Sea has been a complete wild west as fishing goes. RN warships colliding with Icelandic CG, Norwegian CG firing warning shots at Icelandic trawlers, trawlewire cutters… the Iceland CG pioneered trawlewire cutters and cut 82 trawls during the year-long CWII. There were no less than 54 collisions between RN warships and Iceland CG during CWIII in the winter of 1975-76.
Hence looking to the east, but not Denmark. :diablo:
http://www.britains-smallwars.com/RRGP/CodWar.htm
WanshanSettled by Norwegian and Celtic (Scottish and Irish) immigrants during the late 9th and 10th centuries A.D., Iceland boasts the world’s oldest functioning legislative assembly, the Althing, established in 930. Independent for over 300 years, Iceland was subsequently ruled by Norway and Denmark. Fallout from the Askja volcano of 1875 devastated the Icelandic economy and caused widespread famine. Over the next quarter century, 20% of the island’s population emigrated, mostly to Canada and the US. Limited home rule from Denmark was granted in 1874 and complete independence attained in 1944. Literacy, longevity, income, and social cohesion are first-rate by world standards.
Under a 1951 bilateral agreement, Iceland’s defense was provided by a US-manned Icelandic Defense Force (IDF) headquartered in Keflavik; in October 2006, all US military forces in Iceland were withdrawn; nonetheless, the US and Iceland signed a Joint Understanding to strengthen their bilateral defense relationship, including regular security consultations, military communications in the event of national emergencies, annual bilateral exercises on Icelandic territory, and future bilateral and NATO support to four Iceland Air Defense System (IADS) radar sites
Iceland disputes Denmark’s alignment of the Faroe Islands’ fisheries median line; Iceland, the UK, and Ireland dispute Denmark’s claim that the Faroe Islands’ continental shelf extends beyond 200 nm
WanshanThe Dutch after WW2 had to start practically from scratch in a country that had suffered tremendously during the last year of the war and where every penny was to be used for reconstruction purposes. The government decided to buy Great Britain’s Gloster Meteor, which was already in use with the RAF. More important was that the Dutch Fokker factories were licensed to build the Gloster Meteor, with Belgium’s Fabrique Nationale as producer of licensed Rolls- Royce Derwent engines. As a result, the first Meteor squadron was founded in 1948, to be followed, in 1949 and 1950, by four additional squadrons.
In the meantime, the U.S. government had agreed to the Mutual Defense Aid Program (MDAP). It was under the terms of this program that the tactical squadrons were to be equipped. In 1951, the first F-84E Republic Thunder jets arrived; and by 1953, with the support of U.S. MDAP teams, four tactical squadrons had obtained operational status. The buildup was accompanied by organizational changes. Army Air Command Netherlands was split up, forming an Air Defense Command, a Tactical Air Command, a Logistics Command, a Training Command, and an Air Field Defense Command. Two more air defense squadrons were added to the Dutch strength, as well as one more tactical fighter-bomber squadron and a photorecce squadron. In 1956, three night fighter squadrons, equipped with F-86K Sabre jets, completed the buildup.
In 1956, the first generation of jet aircraft––the Meteors and the Thunderjets––had to make place for new aircraft, namely, the British Hawker Hunter and the F-84F Thunderstreak, which, in turn, were replaced by the F-104G Starfighter during the early 1960s. In 1971, a modified F-5 Northrop fighter, known as the NF-5, was introduced. All these aircraft have been removed from active service now and have been replaced by the General Dynamics F-16 (except the NF-5, which will be replaced at a later date). The F-16 represented a completely new generation of versatile fighter aircraft, and it was very adroitly called “the air force’s whirlwind.” Expected replacement will be the F-35 JSF
WanshanWell, I wonder if the recover would work during bad weather!! 😉 :p
Doubt if you notice bad weather underwater much.
WanshanI know that, but as you might have noticed, the European ships have also exchanged their two helicopter capacity for a single helicopter. Another weakening factor…
F122 2 sea lynx helicopters
F123 2 x AgustaWestland Sea Lynx
F124 two NH90 helicopters
The others (F100, LCF etc) will get single heli’s but of larger types.
WanshanI think that the Osprey proved that European designs aren’t always superior. That has frequently been the case in the United States.
The Ospreys turned out to be even slower than the 1950s vintage MSOs. Despite their protracted early problems, the Avenger class MCMs have matured into capable minecountermeasures platforms and good sea boats.
In any event, the actually mine countermeasures systems matter far more than the hull these days. In many cases, a small commerical trawler would suffice if sufficient money is spent on sonar and drone minesweeps.
Osprey class …. a superior US design? Mmm….
This from Naval Technology:
The Osprey class ships are the world’s largest Glass-Reinforced Plastic (GRP) ships and are the first US Navy ships designed solely for minehunting….The design of the ship is based on the Italian Lerici Class minehunters built by Intermarine at Sarzana.
WanshanIt would be even more interesting to know what in the world makes you think they can fire RAM missiles out of an 8-cell Sea Sparrow launcher.
I’ve read about Mk 29 cells beling able to take 4-5 RAM before. Not sure it ever became operational but surely possible.
“RAM missiles were to have been installed, four each in two cells of the Mk 29 Sea Sparrow launcher, in the early 1990s, but the modification has been canceled.”
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/dd-963-design.htm
This would suggest possibility of max of 8×4=32 RAM on a mk29 launcher …
IIRC, the Northrop Grumman/Litton Ingalls ‘International Frigate’ – basically a larger version of the Israeli Saar 5 – featured 2 launchers with 2 x 4-5 RAM each, the launcher basically being 2 cells for a Mk29 but on its own smaller mount.
WanshanI had a question regarding the Mig-29k. The empty wieght is said to be around 11000 kg. While the maximum fuel load is about 5240 kg.
http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/russia/airdef/mig-29.htm
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/MiG-29K.htmlThe maximum take off weight is about 22400kg from BR site. Which means the max weapon load should be about
22400-5240-11000 = 6160kg. But BR only puts the max weapon load at 5500. Why this discrepancy? Is 5500 the max bring back load (seems high) or the max take-off load from carrier.
It’s not just about weight but also about space/volume. With all stations maximally occupied, you might still not be at max. weapons weight, depending on the ordnance in question.
WanshanSome more Greek views:
There’s an Adams mored near the Kortenear in this series.
WanshanSome sites of Military interest from Greece:
What’s presumed an Adams class is actually a Kortenaer, with a Meko beside it in dock.
WanshanThe Chinese sub purposely surface within 5 miles of the carrier fleet! More or less it is trying to prove a point to US fleet.
… and maybe the US fleet let it come this close purposely. (i.e. we don’t know whether the sub was not detected and tracked all the way in)
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