WanshanB.t.w., I was invited to inspect the Indonesian Sigma’s.
Those ships look great ! Clean, spacious, large stairs, all cables behind plates.
Nice shape … wow!
7seas, have you any pics or some of your famous ‘various aspects’ images for the Indonesian Sigma’s? I’ld really like to see how they are.
WanshanA scan of the plan for the DDL
Unicorn 🙂
Great! Thanks Unicorn. Funny, it’s like a cross between main characteristics of Type 42 and O H Perry. In addition to Mk13/SM1 and Mk 45 single 5″, 2×3 ASW tubes and 2 helicopters it is fitted for but not with 2 twin 30mm Emerlec mounts. Don’t see those much (ROK navy, mainly). Cool. 😎
WanshanMorocco with Rafales will scary many EU mediterranean countries as Spain, Portugal and Italy.
Right, all 18 of them…
Spain: Operates Mirage F-1 C/CE/EE/ED/B/BE/DD (53 jets, 3 squadrons), F/A-18 A/B Hornet (95 jets, 6 squadrons), Northrop SF-5B/F-5M (26 jets, 2 squadrons) and ordered 87 Eurofighter EF2000. Nowadays the Spanish armed forces are in a continuous modernization programme. Further (secondhand) F/A-18s have been delivered, they will serve as a stopgap until the ordered Eurofighter Typhoons have been delivered.
Italy: Operates Panavia Tornado IDS/ECR (84 jets, 4 squadrons), AMX-1/T (86 jets, 4 squadrons), F-16A/B (33+ jets, 3 squadrons). As a stopgap and as replacement for Tornado ADV interceptors leased from UK as temporary replacement of ageing F-104 Starfighters, the AMI leased 30 F-16A Block 15 ADF and four F-16B Block 10 Fighting Falcons, with an option to some more. The coming years also will see the introduction of 121 EF2000 Typhoons, as replacement for F-104 Starfighters and the leased F-16 Fighting Falcons. Furthermore updates are foreseen on the Tornado IDS/IDT and the AMX-fleet.
Portugal: F-16 AM/BM (21 jets, 1 squadron), Alphajet A (25 jet, 1 squadron). Some of the noteworthy changes during the last decade include the acquisition of modern aircraft such as the F-16A/B, which replaced the (T)A-7P. At this moment, the 21/4 F-16A/B’s from the second batch are slowly being converted into F-16AM/BM’s, with the first four already on the flightline at Monte Real. IIRC 16 F-16 A/B Block 15 of the first batch are up for sale.
Morocco. Mirage F1 (28 jet, 2 squadrons), F-5 (13/14 jet, 1 squadron), Alpha Jet (22 jets, 1 squadron). The F-5 is rather old but funding for upgrading the type is not available. Plans for purchasing Mirage 2000’s have not been realised yet (but may now superseeded by Rafale purchase).
I think the Morocco’s big next door neighbour should also be considered….
Algeria: Mostly Russian built fighters were used over the years until now. With the retirement of the MiG-21 in 2003, the backbone of the Algerian Air Force is formed by the MiG-29, of which 76 are in use.
WanshanInteresting. Not very pretty though. But must be a sizeable ship, if those gun mounts are what I think they are (127mm Oto Melara, as used on LCF)
WanshanThat is indeed true, the Dutch have shown their concept of a patrol vessel in a Defence Paper and it looked BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD (and certainly when you consider that everyone expected the Sigma), it even had coast guard type of stripes on its hull. It’s weaponry was some 30mm cannon and a helicopter, pretty silly… But on the other hand indeed like the BAM. Have to look for that drawing again, maybe it IS BAM! Don’t remember correctly anymore except for those stripes (which I just noticed to be also on the drawing above) and the silly weapons.
Now, retiring another 2M classes will give them something like 200+million, not enough for 3 or 4 BAM… Of course if they have saved some from the other M-class sales, they might get enough money.
On the other hand, what is the Cost of the Sigma class? Any idea on the price of the Sigma sale to Indonesia?
Of course crew and maintenance would be much smaller than the M-classes, which they could use as an argument too.
If you find that drawing, please scan and post!
WanshanEd, that was what I actually said about being in the exercise. That practice was with a different Spec Forces, but they always seem to underestimate the 14-20m freeboard of some merchant vessels. They just ask (and probably pay) to keep a vessel sailing around for two days in one specific area, during that time they do their practices.
100mlln a piece for the BAM is quite expensive though, you can get a second hand M-class frigate for that price… On the other hand it is really aimed at his task as Pred said, will be more economic and cost-efficient in the end.
Recently there was talk by the defense minister of the Netherlands about the option to retire a further 2 M-frigates but obtain 3-4 (large?) ‘patrol vessels’. Considering the fact that Spain and The Netherlands have been working together in the area of ship design (F100/LCF/F124 Trilateral Frigate Agreement, Rotterdam/Galicia, Amsterdam/Patino), might these BAM ships be an option. Is there any information on this?
WanshanHas it been decided yet which is the world’s most pointless air force? (yes guys, you are waaaaaaaaay of topic)
WanshanHowever they also technically have a number of E-3s, as the NATO ones are registered as Luxembourg aircraft. (they do not provide crewmen however).
Those have civilian registration!
Wanshanhttp://www.aeroflight.co.uk/waf/lux/luxaf1.htm
Luxembourg
Government
Title: Grand Duchy Of Luxembourg
Brief History: One aircraft used for VIP transport. The aircraft carries civilian markings.
National Markings: The national flag is carried as a fin. Aircraft carry the country title in English?
Aircraft Inventory:
Current service types- Aircraft Type Total Del’d Total Now Role Origin
Cessna 550 Citation 1 1 VIP Transport USA
Organisation:
Order of Battle-
The aircraft is based at Luxembourg Airport.
Future Plans:
The Government of Luxembourg has ordered one Airbus A400M strategic airlifter, which will be operated by the Belgian Armed Forces Air Component on behalf of Luxembourg.
:rolleyes:
WanshanWould the German K-130 design fit the ‘patrouilleship’ description? Or is one out of Royal Schelde’s Sigma line of ships more likely.
WanshanThe islands are not as “independent” as they may look like and the degree of practical independence depends on the island in question. Currently, a commission is reviewing the ties between the European Netherlands and the islands. So far its advise has been to totally reconfigure the relationship between the islands and the mainland, but no agreement has been reached yet. Its advise is to give the smaller islands (the upwind ones) the same status as a Dutch community (i.e. turning them into overseas territories), as they are not economically viable on their own; and the larger ones (downwind isles) more freedom of their own. Also the other islands currently do not like the influence of the largest island, Curacoa.
Never said they were independent. There is a difference with independently governed (self rule within the context of the Kingdom). This is why the Dutch still have a ministry of the Interior and Kingdom Relations (BZK)
WanshanThere are currently 4 M-frigates still in Dutch service:
Hr. Ms. Karel Doorman (F 827) (sold to Belgium)
Hr. Ms. Willem van der Zaan (F 829) (sold to Belgium)
Hr. Ms. Tjerk Hiddes (F 830) (sold to Chili)
Hr. Ms. Van Amstel (F 831)
Hr. Ms. Abraham van der Hulst (F 832) (transferred to Chili on 16 dec 2005 )
Hr. Ms. Van Nes (F 833)
Hr. Ms. Van Galen (F 834)
Hr. Ms. Van Speijk (F 828)
A sale of 2 ships to Portugal would leave the RNthN with only 2 M-frigates to complement the 4 “Zeven Provincien” class LCF ‘frigates’.
The following from http://www.marineschepen.nl/
New bleeding threatens for navy.
Defence minisiter Kamp wants the option of the purchase of patrol ships for operations in coastal waters seriously studied. A modification in the composition of the surface fleet must not lead however to quality loss and a such an intervention must be financially feasable.
Whether this change will really lead to improvement is still but the question. Within several forums on the Internet, it is for a long time spoken concerning corvettes. Sale of 2 M-fregatten to finance purchase of 4 corvettes is on certain points a clear improvement. Kamp speaks now however concerning the purchase of 3 patrol boats. That would mean an enormous extra economy measure plus a huge quality loss. Patrol boats are small ships which operate in Dutch coastal waters or in the Caribbean area with police force tasks. These ships can add nothing in a higher violence spectrum to the support for country operations. Small ships have limited range and will possibly function badly or hardly in bad weather. Patrol boats of the Fearless class (to see photograph) are 55 meters long and have a water displacement of 500 tonss. Trading 2 M-fregatten (122m, 3300 tons) for 3 patrol boats is no progress. If Kamp means very large patrol boats then why doesn’t he speak of corvettes? That is the type of ships the defence department and the navy need, however.
WanshanHolland has a long and proud tradition with their navy (Historically, they have given the RN a good thrashing more than once) and as they have a large’ish merchant fleet for the size of country and are great traders they justify the navy that way. They also have significant colonies to protect thousands of miles from home.
The term colony no longer applies. The Dutch Antilles are independently governed but remain part of the Kingdom of the Netherlands (compare “Commonwealth”). The Dutch are responsible for defence of the Dutch Antilles.
WanshanAll depends what they’re used for, many of the more capable corvettes are basically utilised in an OPV role for which they’re way, way too expensive, and despite an impressive looking weapons and sensor suite on paper they are not equivalent to a cut price frigate, often their true capabilities are nothing like the brochure claims due to problems with stability, accomodation and space, it’s quite normal with some of these vessels that they can carry a useful ASuW or ASW or AA weapons fit but not all together in spite of listing a most impressive aresnal on paper. The Israeli Sa’ar design is a good example, when new they were held up as a wonderful design carrying a equal punch to much bigger frigates and destroyers in other navies at a fraction of the cost and size, yet their stability is marginal and in service they’ve not managed to match any of the big claims made for the design when new. There is almost no growth potential, stability tends to be marginal and the costs really aren’t that much less than a larger more capable frigate if fully specced up given that a massive part of the costs of a warship are the command and control systems, sensor suite and weapons, fit equivalent radar, c&c and fighting capability to a corvette as a frigate and you’re getting a platform with a lot less growth potential, much less capability due to lower endurance and habitability and probably poorer rough weather operational capability. If the vessels are intended for inshore/near coastal work then it is probably better to buy a much smaller FAC type if intended to guard against enemy combatants, or a good OPV is intended for Coastguard style duties. If intended for deep sea ops then the disadvantages mean a frigate makes a lot more sense, even financially.
Agree. Good example of better balanced design is the Italian Minerva class corvette. It’s an ASW escort with Otomat SSMs and Aspide SAMs. Design variants included one which didn’t have the Aspide but a helicopter deck and hangar instead. NUMC is also a good example, if somewhat lightly armed.
WanshanThe best link I have seen is the Sinodefence one which is in English Im afraid.
The type 730 is very similar (almost a copy) of the Goalkeeper with a single 7 barrel 30mm cannon.
The twin gattling gun system you are probably thinking of is the russian Kashtan system.
There’s also a European twin 25mm Gatling using a mount similar to Sea Zenith.
Interestingly, UK only started doodling with Phalanx and Goalkeer after Falklands, initially relying on Sea Wolf only. Germans have adopted RAM and like France not messed with gun CIWS, though private development included a quad 27mm system called Drakon (using gun from Tornado).
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