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Wanshan

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  • in reply to: Varyag getting prettied up for a dance #2073535
    Wanshan
    Participant

    KUZNETSOV CLASS (TYPE 1143.5) HEAVY AIRCRAFT CARRYING CRUISER

    standard displacement 43,000 tons
    full load displacement 55,000 tons
    maximum displacement 58,600 tons
    source

    Displacement: 67,500.0 (Tons) (Fully Loaded)
    source

    … I figure the report is not talking about Varyag therefor.

    Soviet aircraft carrier Ulyanovsk (nuclear powered multirole aircraft carrier, based upon the 1975 Project OREL, cancelled when 40% complete)
    Displacement:80000 tons max
    source
    Displacement: 85,000 tons full load
    source

    The Ul’yanovsk was the OREL design, revisited. She was to be a 75,000-ton follow-on to the Kuznetsov class, with steam catapults to launch her aircraft (eliminating the ski-jump bow). Ul’yanovsk would have been the first Russian nuclear-powered aircraft carrier. Her air wing would likely have been an expanded version of that found aboard Kuznetsov. The first unit of the class was laid down at Nikolayev South in late 1988. However, work stopped on the vessel after the August coup, in November 1991, and never resumed. In early February of the following year, she was scrapped.
    source

    How does co-development of a conventially powered version of Ulyanovsk by russia and china sound? It would help russia finance work on a Kuznetsov follow-on while not having to order one yet and would provide China with something more potent than the Kuz.

    in reply to: Official Version of KURSK Sub not TRUE #2073776
    Wanshan
    Participant

    “the middle of the hull you could see a nearly perfectly round hole, about a meter in diameter”
    More like 1,5 meters if you ask me but even at 1 meter it is hardly indicative of ‘a small diameter projectile’ (if at all of a projectile), particularly considering the fact that naval artillery hasn’t gone beyond 45cm and torpedoes don’t currently come in diameters over 65cm.

    “right there in the middle of the hull, that round hole, whose diameter corresponds exactly to the impact point of our new weaponry”
    And we know this how? Secret weapon details somehow suddenly became available?

    What functional railguns are there, and where? Aren’t they all experimental rigs only? Only last year did the USN get funding for development of a prototype for a surface ship railgun to be developed for DDX (expected 2010). How big would a railgun capable of firing a 1m projectile be? Would it fit into a LA class sub and where? Would a submarine of the LA class be able to generate sufficient electrical power to fire a rail gun? Does electromagnetic railgun technology even work under water? Does any any gun technology work underwater (i.e. how do projectiles – not torpedo’s – behave underwater)?

    Turning to motive and opportunity: Supposedly (according to the articles quoted by WC), the Kursk incident was used as a pretext for re-examining Russia’s whole naval doctrine and for the abandonment of all means of countering American carrier might, notably 650mm torpedo’s. The 650mm torpedo first appeared together with the 949 Granit/Oscar I cruisemissile sub in 1982, and followed by 971 Bars/Akula class in 1985. In 1989 USS Memphis (SSN-691) was withdrawn from active service to become a research platform to test advanced submarine technology such as optronic non-hull-penetrating masts, Unmanned Underwater Vehicles (UUV), and large diameter torpedoes. Although the USS MEMPHIS was modified to serve as a test and evaluation platform for advanced submarine systems and equipment, she retained her combat capability. In January 1994 MEMPHIS entered Portsmouth Naval Shipyard for RCOH and modifications to support her Research and Development role. Upon completion of the shipyard availability she was assigned to Submarine Development Squadron TWELVE in Groton, CT. Assuming it was fitted with a functional railgun in 1989, and considering the threat from 650mm torpedos to US carrier groups, why did the US wait no less than 11 years untill August 2000 to kill the Kursk (or another sub) and create the incident that would lead to withdrawal of 650mm torpedos from russian active service? Even is the railgun was fitted only in 1994, you can ask the question as to why wait for 6 years given an accute threat?

    Kursk on seabed: where’s that hole again?
    http://www.lostliners.com/Peril/Images/kursk/Part2/onseabed.jpg

    Double hull, with 3,5-4m space and equipement between outer and inner hulls. (Just the outer is 2,5 inch steel plate)
    http://www.aeronautics.ru/img003/kursk-049-diagram.jpg

    http://www.joelertola.com/grfx/grfx_img/KurskMed.gif

    http://www.igh-essen.com/www/2_projekte/05_hebung_der_kursk/img/01salvage.gif

    688 class fast attack submarine diagram: where can we put a railgun that fires a 1m projectile?
    http://www.sublant.navy.mil/GRAPHICS/JPEGS/688_cutaway.jpg

    in reply to: Official Version of KURSK Sub not TRUE #2073841
    Wanshan
    Participant

    WHITE CLOWD
    Official Version of “KURSK” Sub not TRUE
    This is what Really happend, http://oag.ru/views/kursk2.html

    Technically, you’ve not provided a theory of your own, you’ve just linked to sites where other people pose their theories. However, you have made clear you believe and support those theories. When and where exactly did I claim to know your personal theory? Also, my remarks about DISPROVING a theory were clearly about the story of the railgun. So, I’ve not claimed anywhere to have disproven your personal theory.

    On my part, I’ve accepted the possibility that the official explanation of the tragedy may not be true. I have directed my comments at the sites (i.e. my comments where about what was said on those sites i.e. about the alternative explanations for the Kursk tragedy you put forward). Now, lets assume I did claim to know about you personal theory (which I didn’t). How is that at all relevant to the arguments I’ve made against the theories put forward on the sites you linked to?

    “Zionists from outer space ate my Buick” :rolleyes:

    in reply to: Official Version of KURSK Sub not TRUE #2073847
    Wanshan
    Participant

    They did attach 26 cables to the sub to raise it. Since it was listing to port on the seabed that hole might be an attachment point for one of the cables. Divers did go down and drill a bunch of holes. But that isn’t anti-American, now, is it?

    Indeed, the salvagers from the Dutch company Mammoth did cut holes in the hull. See here Download pdf from Smit-Tak here

    in reply to: Official Version of KURSK Sub not TRUE #2073855
    Wanshan
    Participant

    I will PROOVE that YOU don’t even know what I’m sayin, SO Wanshan what is MY theory, that you think you’ve DISproved, people stay tuned cus I’ll show YOU he doesn’t even know!!

    Promises promises

    in reply to: Official Version of KURSK Sub not TRUE #2073857
    Wanshan
    Participant

    But there is obviously a hole in the Kursk, bar the man made possibility to fool the French dude, what else could it be then if the Kursk hull is designed to withstand a hit from a mk-50?

    Also if the Kursk was designed to withstand an mk-50, would distance from sub make a difference at all or any denotation before impact?

    Any possibility wherein an mk-50 type torp would be able to penetrate a double hull?

    As far as the debt cancellation, I have checked the IMF website and I can confirm that there was a large transfer of payment that month by Russsia but as per reports on the Russian transaction with the IMF, such repayments had been planned and expected by the IMF already….

    It’s not that this sub’s outer hull would withstand a Mk50 hit. Indeed, quite the contrary, the Mk50 would penetrate it. However, penetration of the outer hull by a Mk50 would not be sufficient to sink the sub.

    “The Oscar-class nuclear-powered cruise missile attack submarine, which displaces more than 18,000 tons when under water, is one of Russia’s largest and most capable submarines. As with earlier cruise-missile submarine, the Oscar was designed primarily to attack American aircraft carrier battle groups.

    As with other Russian submarines, the Oscar features a double hull — and inner pressure hull and an outer hydrodynamic hull, with eight inches of rubber between them to muffle sounds. American submarines have a single pressure hull, with additional hydrodynamic fairings, such as the cap that encloses the bow sonar dome. The 3.5 meter separation between the inner and outter hulls on the Oscar provides significant reserve buoyancy, and improved survivability against conventional torpedoes.

    The Project 949A submarines have a total of at least ten separate compartments, which can be sealed off from each other in the event of accidents. “
    Source

    http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/images/949-line1.gif

    in reply to: New german technology for submarines #2073899
    Wanshan
    Participant

    it’s hard to believe, that terrorists will attack a submerged sub. best defence of subs is staying submerged and silent. imho there is no need for this gun (with only 30 ready to fire shells).

    Not even in support of SpecOps personnel landing on a beach?

    in reply to: Official Version of KURSK Sub not TRUE #2073922
    Wanshan
    Participant

    Oh and of course those torpedos are not carried by submarines but by surface vessels and aircraft. Guess those snooping American subs must have had air cover that no one happened to notice. Oh dear.

    Funny how folks are so quick to point out how unlikely that it was cause A or cause B etc but they are quite happy to accept that that the US is cruising around sinking Russian subs, in the middle of a major exercise no less :rolleyes:

    Daniel

    I have not for a moment accepted that the US would. But while I can’t disprove the presence of ‘ other than russian’ submarines, I can disprove a theory.

    in reply to: Official Version of KURSK Sub not TRUE #2073951
    Wanshan
    Participant

    OKay this is interesting because i recently watched the BBC documentary about the Kursk and I always wanted to start a thread to gauge the opinions of members here.

    There is evidence that the USS Memphis and Toledo were in the area and that at least one of the subs was damaged.

    The story went something like this
    1 Accidental collission
    2 Kursk pursues US sub
    3 in self defence, fearing the launch of a Skhaval second US sub launches torpedo.

    Admiral of Russian fleet flies off the Peter the Great, fighters are scrambled but aparently Clinton and Putin talk and Russian debt is cancelled by the US that same week and everyone is happy.

    The show presents some evidnce on the hole of the Kursk and talks about it being made by a US torpedo.

    US ‘torpedoed Kursk nuclear sub’
    Daniel Stacey, London
    May 09, 2005
    A FORMER British military official has backed a sensational claim that the Russian nuclear submarine, the Kursk, was torpedoed by US forces in August 2000.

    An official inquest concluded that the disaster – in which all 118 crew drowned in the Barents Sea, 135km off the Russian coast – was caused by an accidental explosion of an onboard torpedo.

    But Maurice Stradling, a former torpedo engineer and a key figure in the original investigation, believes a new French documentary, The Kursk: A Submarine in Troubled Waters, should change world opinion on the sinking.

    “On the balance of probabilities, the Kursk was sunk by an American MK-48 torpedo,” said Mr Stradling, formerly a senior member of the British Defence Ministry.

    BBC editor Nick Fraser called the claim a “pack of lies” and has refused to air the documentary, which attracted a record audience of more than 4 million when it screened on French TV.

    The BBC used Mr Stradling as its main authority for a documentary it made in 2001 – What Sank the Kursk?, in which Mr Stradling theorised that the sinking was caused by the malfunctioning of an old-fashioned HTP torpedo.

    Mr Stradling, who also appears in the new French documentary, said: “At the time (2001), that was a perfectly reasonable film, given the facts as we knew them then, when there seemed to be no third-party involvement,”

    The new explanation for the Kursk’s downing is based on film footage of a hole in the side of the vessel, and evidence placing US submarines in the area at the time it was sunk.

    The French film shows stills of the Kursk raised above the water after being salvaged, with a precise circular hole in its right side. The hole clearly bends inwards, consistent with an attack from outside the submarine.

    A US military source in the documentary declares the hole to be the trademark evidence of an American MK-48 torpedo, which is made to melt cleanly through steel sheet due to a mechanism at its tip that combusts copper.

    The film suggests the attack happened while two US submarines, the Toledo and Memphis, were shadowing the Kursk in a routine military exercise.

    The documentary says the Toledo accidentally collided with the Kursk, at which point the Russian submarine opened its torpedo tubes, leading to an attack from the Memphis, which was protecting the damaged Toledo while it retreated.

    The cause of the sinking was covered up at the time in an act of diplomacy between then US presidents Bill Clinton and Russian President Vladimir Putin – a deal that included the cancellation of $US10 billion ($12.5 billion) of Russian debt, the film states.

    After the documentary received its only public broadcast in Britain, some claimed the Russian navy had drilled the hole and fed doctored footage to the film-makers to create a false impression.
    http://www.theaustralian.news.com.a…55E2703,00.html

    So I ask, what the heck really happened to the damn Kursk?

    The Mk48 torpedo story has been thouroughly debunked. Mk48 is a heavyweight torpedo (533mm) with a unitary High Explosive warhead. It is designed to exploded under (not against) a target to break its back. This type of warhead does not make nice round holes. A modern lightweight (324mm) like UK’s Stinray or US Mk50 has a shaped charge warhead that could make such a hole. However, The Kursk and her sisters were designed with this type threat in mind and could very likely withstand a hit from such a lightweigh torpedo (widely spaced inner and outer hulls, energy of the penetrating jet dissapates, same principle as spaced armor on tanks like Leo 1)

    I don’t know what happened to Kursk, just that some of the alternative theories presented don’t fly.

    in reply to: Official Version of KURSK Sub not TRUE #2073958
    Wanshan
    Participant

    I’m not coming up with anything I’m reading what the author is stating what most probably happend, so answer me this scince the Nylon and Torpedo and the Tube doesn’t have burn marks who dod you explain that??

    I don’t have to come up with an explanation for this in order to DISPROVE the theory put forward in the article. Read up on the principle of FALSIFICATION in any social science methods book.

    in reply to: Official Version of KURSK Sub not TRUE #2074202
    Wanshan
    Participant

    Here let me say to you with out requoating scince you can’t understand what I’m saying first lets just get to the understanding that the explosion story is a lie,1. Acoording the torpedo from tube #4 and Tube #4 and the nylon track show show no scigns of burning, that blows the story of an explosion in the Torpedo room, do you understand now?

    I think you should try reading my posts from before: I’ve already said the official story may very well not be true. But this doesn’t mean the story you came up with is true. There is plenty wrong with that too.

    in reply to: Official Version of KURSK Sub not TRUE #2074206
    Wanshan
    Participant

    The reason the author was giving two theories of weapons than might have been used he wasn’t contradicting him self, second Vice-Premier Ilya Klebanov and Attorney-General V.Ustinov announced that the governmental commission for the investigation into the the accident of the Kursk had finished its work, and offered the public the results of its two-year labors. Their conclusion: The reason for the atomic sub’s demise was a torpedo fuel explosion occurring in the 4th torpedo tube, leading to a detonation of all warheads. O.K. the gov said they did experements and found out it was an accident, as we go further we’ll see out right contradictions in thier own Statements, (not because they made mistakes but because they “Tripped up in thier lies), Klebanov and Ustinov, said when the type 298 torpedo was already in torpedo tube no. 4, it began to leak hydrogen peroxide (H202) through a poorly-welded seam. That led first to a fire inside the torpedo tube and then to the explosion of the torpedo’s fuel, which caused the whole arsenal stored in the first section of the sub to explode.
    Klebanov and Ustinov say that the hydrogen peroxide leaked and leaked, and then caught on fire. but, the investigation and experiments were conducted in accordance with the “list of experimental tasks” confirmed on 8 Sep. 2000 by deputy chairman of the governmental commission, Vice-Admiral Barskov. And here are the conclusions the experts came to:

    “No aberrations from the norm were revealed during the check of weld-joints on the type 298A torpedo.” The same was confirmed by Academic Gorynin at one of the commission’s sessions.

    What’s more, there are the results of experiments conducted by specialists from the Russian Applied Chemistry Scientific Center. And they show that “a fire in the torpedo tube can happen only in case of a slow leak of hydrogen peroxide, in the range of 200 grams per second.”

    The thing is that a more powerful stream of H202 would simply extinguish the fire, and a weaker one would cause the flame to go out of its own accord: There’s enough oxygen in the torpedo tube to support combustion for only 1.5 seconds. And here it’s enough to remember your fifth-grade chemistry to know that a regular supply of oxidizer is needed to support flame in any enclosed space.

    If Messrs. Ustinov and Klebanov really believe what they say at their press-conferences, then the following picture emerges, if we take into account the above-mentioned experiments: First, some disembodied spirit squeezed into the torpedo tube along with the torpedo loaded there. Then this same demon bored a little hole and let a few drops of peroxide leak out. After the fire began, that very same terrorist from the beyond widened the opening just enough to ensure 200g/sec. leakage, no more, no less, and in that manner kept the fire going. Nonsense, you say?

    they say, a fire in the torpedo tube. But in the commission’s materials we find, written in black and white: “On the fragments of torpedo tube no. 4 raised from the ocean floor and the torpedo itself the paint is intact…”; “the nylon track inside torpedo tube no. 4 shows no signs of high temperature influence…”.

    So there you have it: Inside the torpedo tube a fire is raging, if we’re to believe the report, but paint and nylon are intact. Though they ought to have burned up in the first moments of the blaze. Not nylon, but a veritable “burning bush” was located in torpedo tube no. 4! That’s really something: the torpedo is in shreds, the sub in pieces, but paint and nylon are like new.

    By the way, experiments during the investigation also revealed that the the fuel in our torpedos is very stable and even in the presence of high temperatures can go for a long time without exploding. DO you see now when thier explanations are carefully examined, we find that Government’s own Experements and the actuall reports on the Torpeodo room of Kursk at the bottom of the ocean TOTALY contradict, Klebanov’s and Ustinov’s Statements, this is why I was saying “You guys need to RE-read the article carefully.

    Requoting half the article again is not the same a addressing the inconsistency I pointed out in it. It is not the case that 2 theories of weapon were given in this article. It is that in the theory of the railgun they can’t make up their mind as to what the projectile is like. Assuming it was an attack, and assuming it was a submounted railgun, it’s either a KE or CE kill, not both.

    in reply to: Official Version of KURSK Sub not TRUE #2074236
    Wanshan
    Participant

    Realistically, the chances that the official explanation is not what actually happened are fairly high in this case. Governments do lie, bend the truth, and/or spin bad news. However, having said that, this of course does not mean that the explanation put forward by White Clowd must therefore be true. That explanation will still have to be assessed on its own merits.

    Towards the end, the article reference by White Clowd speaks of a new weapon with cumulative charge warhead such as would be found on the Mk50, Stingray and Mu-90 torpedos. The term ‘cumulative charge’ is actually equivalent to ‘shaped charge’. Take, for example, the RKG-3 anti-tank hand grenade: RKG in Russian stands for “cumulative-charge (shaped-charge) hand grenade”. A shaped charge warhead penetrates armor on the beasis of chemical energy generated by the explosion of the warhead. A jet of molten metal forms, which burns through armor.

    Yet earlier in the article the supposed new weapon used to sunk the Kursk was described as an electromagnetic (rail)gun for submarines, which accelerate a small-diameter depleted uramium tipped projectile to enormous speeds using a powerful electromagnetic field. If this were the weapon involved then the projectile penetrates on the basis of kinetic energy: slamming a thin but long and very heavy pentrator at very high speed against a surface generates very high pressure a vary small area, which is enough to actually punch through armor. The article bases its case for this new weapon on discovery a radiation hotspot on the ocean floor near the wreck.

    So, essentially the authors of the article are claiming a new weapon was used. Yet they don’t even notice they are contradicting themselves in terms the type of warhead involved. Essentially, it is the difference between a HEAT and an APFSDS tank round, but applied to the projectile fired by a supposed electromagnetic gun for subs. Its a mistake that is pretty similar to saying a Mk 48 heavyweight torpedo (with unitary HE blast warhead) made that little round hole in the sub’s side (as if it had a shaped charge warhead like the Mk50 lightweight). Also, I don’t get the impression that the authors even really know and understand how depleted uranium is used in AP rounds.

    WC: The article has been read, don’t tell anyone to read the article again.

    As a sidebar (speaking to the need for defense against torpedo’s – which would be part of the motive for sinking the Kursk) :

    Some interesting new US approaches to defence against torpedo’s here and here. At the Navy League show, Pennsylvania State University displayed a model of an antitorpedo torpedo. The new weapon is 6.25 inches in diameter, to fit the decoy tubes of submarines it is also to be carried by surface ships, using a short towed array as its cueing sensor. The Russians advertise both an anti-torpedo torpedo (Paket NK) and a rocket (Udav) that is fired to impact when the torpedo crosses a line in the water.

    in reply to: Official Version of KURSK Sub not TRUE #2074306
    Wanshan
    Participant

    3. Why hasn’t the Zionist controled Russian Top leadership explained, just how they did “socalled” find out that H202 leakage WAS the cause of the explasion?

    Hahahahahahaha LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!

    Now, not only the US top leadership but also the russian top leadership is controlled by Zionists!?!?!?!?! Incredible ….. how funny. Someone help me stop laughing please, I can’t take anymore!!!!!

    “Mighty influencial folk them Zionists, arn’t they!” :rolleyes:

    in reply to: Official Version of KURSK Sub not TRUE #2074319
    Wanshan
    Participant

    Besides the fact that a heavyweight (533mm diameter) Mk48 is a keelbreaker that employs a unitary HE warhead and not a shaped charge warhead, the Kursk was designed to withstand and survive the impact of newer lightweight (324mm diameter) torpedos armed with a shaped charge warhead, like Mk50 and Stingray : an outer hull would detonate the warhead and because of a sufficiently large spacing with an innder hull, the inner hull would not be penetrated (same principle used in spaced armor on e.g. Leopard 1).

Viewing 15 posts - 2,881 through 2,895 (of 3,544 total)