Wanshanthe Brahmos are also land attack cruise missiles.
Please note:
As with the Talwar Class, long range strike weapons will be carried in eight vertical launch cells for the Klub-N ASCM.
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Ships/Future/190-Project-17.html
The weaponry systems include the Russian Shtil surface-to-air missile systems, Klub anti-ship cruise missiles, and Israeli Barak-I missile defence system.
http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/shivalik-class-friga/
Consider that the P17 has only a single 8-cells VLU. Also consider that Talwar batch II are earmarked for Brahmos while most Talwars batch 1 are armed with Club-N (which suggests that either the VLU or the fire control on the first two batch 1 vessels may not be compatible with Brahmos).
Jane’s Defence Weekly reported in April 2004, that IN sources indicated that INS Tabar would be the first vessel in the Talwar series to be armed with the supersonic BrahMos (PJ-10) ASCM, which DRDO of India and NPO Mashinostroyeniya of Russia, have co-developed. The other two vessels (Talwar and Trishul) will also subsequently be equipped with the BrahMos ASCM.
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Ships/Active/180-Talwar-Class.html
(I.e. the first two need retrofitting of something in order to allow them to used Brahmos)
First 2 batch 1 Talwar: 3R14N-11356 shipborne fire-control system > Club-N control only
Last batch 1 and all batch 2 Talwar: 3R-14UKSK-X* (UKSK) multipurpose shipboard firing system > Club-N and Brahmos control
I wouldn’t be surprised, therefor, if P17 batch 1 will initially sail with Club-N capability only. However, even is its VLU and fire control are fully Brahmos compatible (which they may well be!), then given the limited number of cells and the need for the ship to have at least some self defence capability against ships, it is likely that P17 would at most carry 6 dedicated land-attack Brahmos variants (which would need a different warhead and guidance than the ship attack version, I would think). To the extent that the ship-attack variant can also engage coastal/land targets, the ship can carry a full pack of Brahmos. However, the nature of its warhead and guidance system will limit the amount of damage it can do to certain type of targets and/or the range of landtargets it can effectively engage.
Besides, do keep in mind that same 8-cell launcher would/could have to be shared with other Club-N family members, notably the asroc-like variant for anti-submarine work.
So, nice, but nothing to get all exited about, IMHO.
Wanshani also love the fact that the Pr 17 is strike capable. :diablo:
What do you mean by that? It has SSMs, so do most frigates.
WanshanThat is the 3R95
Topaz and Podkat apparently are the radars which both goes under the NATO reporting name Strut Pair, am I right?
According to “The Naval Institute guide to the Soviet Navy” by Norman Polmar,United States Naval Institute (p 407)…
Strut Pair
Air search radar with antenna formed by two Strut Curve antennas mounted back-to-back. Fitted in aircraft carriers and smaller warships. F-band.
Carriers: Kiev (2 units), Admiral Kuznetsov (ex-Tbilisi)
Destroyers: Kashin (1 unit), Udaloy (some units)
Frigates: Grisha V (some units)Strut Curve
Small air/surface-search radar fitted in smaller warships and auxiliary ships. Open, lattice type elliptical parabolic reflector with horn feed from a boom projecting from the lower edge of the scanner. Maximum range is 150 n.miles (276 km) against aircraft at medium altitudes. No balancing vanes are fitted. F-band (3,000-4,000 MHz)
Frigates: Grisha, Koni Mirka, Petya
Corvettes: Poti, T-58
Minelayers: Alesha
Amphibious: Ropucha
Auxiliary ships: Berezina, Ivan Susann
About the pic I posted before: I’ve looked at that as being one single unit. Are you guys looking at it as two co-located units, with the planar array being referred to as (?) and the dual parabolic array referred to as Podkat? Otherwise I don’t quite follow!
From wiki
Fire control (FC) is handled by the [I]3R95 multi-channel FC system, (NATO reporting name Cross Sword)[/I],composed of two different radar sets, a G-band target acquisition radar (maximum detection range 45 km/28 mi,[9]) and a K-band target engagement radar, (maximum tracking range 15 km/9 mi[citation needed]) that handles the actual prosecution of a target.
Using two top mounted, mechanically scanned, parabolic target acquisition radars, the fire control system provides a 360 degree field of view, as well as IFF. The target engagement radar is an electronically scanned phased array antenna of the reflection type mounted on the front of the fire control system with a 60 degree field of view. Much like its land based sibling, the target engagement radar can track and guide eight missiles on up to four targets at once and is effective to a range of 1.5–12 km and an altitude of 10-6000 m. The system has a reaction time of 8–24 seconds[citation needed], depending on the mode of operation, and is managed by a crew of 13. Additional missile guidance antennae can be seen around the fire control system and the 3K95, like the upgraded Tor launchers, is equipped with a secondary infrared guidance system. The 3R95 can also provide fire control information for the vessels AK-630 close in weapons systems (CIWS) providing a second line of defence should anything penetrate the missile layer.
Wanshanshe defnitly has a nice look to her. can’t decide if i like her or the Type 054a better :dev2:
I feel the 054A is a tad sexier (curved), but the P17 a bit more menacing (angular).
Shivalik would look better yet with 2x 12-cell VLU for the Shtil in place of the 24-round SRL and maybe a second 8-round VLU in place of the RBUs. Very interesting arrangement for the stack/main exhaust!
WanshanOnce again – Podkat has nothing to do with fire control of Kinzhal. Podkat is a dedicated low altitude search radar. As first ships of 1155 class did not get Kinzhals installed, and there was no specific radar for FC there, Podkat was mistakenly associated with FC of Kinzhal.
Fire control unit in Kinzhal i 3R95, Kolchan – 3R95M. Kolchan uses more advanced 9M331 missile.
This I don’t understand. We’re talking about the thingy in the pic below right?
MR-350 Podkat/Cross Sword SA-N-9 control
See p.595 of Naval Institute Guide to Combat Fleets of the World, by Eric Wertheim
If this has nothing to do with 3K95 “Kinzhal” / SA-N-9 “Gauntlet”, a navalized variant of SA-15 “Gauntlet aka 9k330 Tor, then how come we see it installed on Admiral Kuznetsov class aircraft carriers, Kirov class multimission cruisers, Udaloy class anti-submarine destroyers and Neustrashimy class frigates and Grisha-IV corvettes? Which all have the 8-round circularVLS systems.
WanshanStarted watching “Sailor” on dvd. Its a very cool bbc series from 1976. FANTASTIC footage of Ark Royal! Ahhh…..when Britain had a REAL aircraft carrier!:)
Warship was a popular British television drama series produced by the BBC between 1973 and 1977. It was also dubbed into Dutch and broadcast in the Netherlands as ‘Alle hens’ (All hands). Four series were produced, with 45 episodes made in total. It was mainly filmed aboard the Leander-class frigate HMS Phoebe.
Wanshani think the second ammunition storage is not the big problem. e.g. they can use two smaller revolving magazins instead one big one (like they do it with the 127 mm mount). imho the problem is that they either have to redesign the whole loading system in the turret itself or they are not able to instantly switch between the two ammunitions. with the current loading system, there are up to 10 rounds stored between the magazin and the gun barrel.
It can’t be something too complex if it is offered as an upgrade option to both Compact and Super Rapid versions. If an upgrade (to a fitted mount), then it pretty much has to stay within the volumetric confines of the current system, especially if it is a mount used on a smaller vessel.
I think it would be informative to know how the rapid switching of ammo was done in the Otomatic SPAAG (switching from air to armored surface targates and back can’t be useful if you first have to fires 10 rounds of the old ammo before switching to the new ammo)
WanshanWhat I find interesting is the on mount radar, I presume the cover bolted on top of the turret usually covers the radar.
It is not bolted but hinges!
http://www.otomelara.it/EN/Common/files/OtoMelara/pdf/business/naval/development/STRALES.pdf
Wanshanbut this is the “old” feeding system. from my understand the dual feeding is a new development (most likely with davide/dart in mind).
As is evident from company PDFs linked to here, dual feeding is offered as option to both standard Compact and Super Rapid version. Likewise, it is evident both the standard Compact and the Super Rapid version can fire Davide. I’m trying to picture how dual feeding would work for this gun. Hence, the materials relating to the feed/loading mechanism. IMHO, dual feeding means a second, off mount ammunition supply (i.e. not directly below the gun), which is at some point (close to the actual gun) connected to the existing loading system. Likely at the screw feeder or the loading drum.
WanshanI can’t see the 2 small radars associated with the RASTRUB/METEL rockets.
Has the GIBKA taken the place they occupied?
How will they guide the RASTRUB/METEL frm now if their radars are gone?
As Snake65 indicated, Gibka is in the spot where the forward MR-360 Podkat/Cross Sword would have been.
If you are referring to the two Drakon (Eye Bowl) SSM targeting radars, they are still there, directly over the bridge (one is visible over the stardboard quad-missile launcher, the other over the portcorner of the bridge).
WanshanGood thing that page includes this sentence: “The opinions expressed in this article are the author’s and do not necessarily represent those of RIA Novosti.“
First of all, the defective propulsion unit comprising steam turbines and turbo-pressurized boilers will be replaced either with a gas-turbine or nuclear propulsion unit.
Either might be possible. Indicative may be, however, that this option was not selected for the Gorshkov-Vikramaditya conversion, which essentially have the same plant, which was also used in the Moskva class and which is a twin version of the plant used in the Sovremenny class destroyers. Note also that there are no indications that the Chinese have selected either a gas-turbine or nuclear propulsion unit for the refit of the Varyag, Kuznetsov’s sistership.
The ship’s 3M45 P-700 Granit (SS-N-19 Shipwreck) anti-ship cruise-missile launchers will be dismantled, and her internal layout changed. Consequently, the hangar area will be expanded to 4,500-5,000 sq. m. for storing additional fixed-wing aircraft.
Given the internal layout in general and more specifically the distance between the location of those launchers and the forward end of the existing hangar, this conversion – while perhaps not impossible – does not seem a very one. See linedrawing below.
Moreover, 4-6 Pantsir-S1 (SA-22 Greyhound) combined short to medium-range SAM and anti-aircraft artillery weapons systems will be installed.
Again, while not impossible, this would seem unlikely. To date, Pantsir S1 is available as land-based system only, whereas Kashtan (CADS-N-1) and Palma/Palash are specifically designed for the naval environment,
The carrier will also receive aircraft catapults, a logical option. Considering the fact that her ski-jump will remain intact, one or two catapults can be located on the angled flight deck.
This is not a logical option at all, as it would require major above and below deck surgery to install. Indicative in this respect is the work by the Chinese on the Kuznetsov’s sistership Varyag. While the Varyag in Chinese service will likely to carry similar aircraft as the Kuznetsov currently does, there is no indication that the Chines have opted to install (backfit) catapults, even though the technology for steamcatapults is available to them (e.g. from the decommissioned HMAS Melbourne).
A similar engineering solution was envisioned for the incomplete Ulyanovsk super-carrier, whose keel was laid down in 1988, but the project was cancelled when it was 40% complete along with a sister ship in 1991 after the end of the Cold War.
By that time, the Soviet Union had developed steam catapults and tested an experimental version at the ground-based NITKA training facility incorporating a ski-jump and deck arrestor. Consequently, this task is feasible.
The choice of catapults is linked with the choice of the ship’s propulsion unit. Steam catapults require a nuclear propulsion unit, while a gas turbine propulsion unit leaves no choice but electromagnetic catapults. Moscow will either have to develop such catapults independently or buy them abroad, or … copy them illegally.
The article firmly states Kuznetsov will get catapults, which – by its own logic concerning the availability of catapult technology to Russia – would indicate the installation of a nuclear is more likely than a conventional power plant. However, as the article indicates, it is not clear what plant Kuznetsov would get if and when it would be reengined. Therefor, no firm statement about the catapults can be made either. (This aside from the already mentioned fact that steam catapults do not require a nuclear propulsion plant).
The carrier’s air wing is to comprise 26 new Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-29K Fulcrum-D multi-role fighter aircraft, helicopters and navalized Sukhoi T-50 PAK FA (Future Frontline Aircraft System) fifth-generation fighters, currently under development.
While there are (firm) indications that Mig-29K would be adopted as replacement for Su-33s, facilitating a larger airwing on board Kuznetsov, what firm indications are there that there actually will be a navalized Sukhoi T-50 PAK FA?
Wanshandoes anybody know, if they will use dual ammunition feeding for the new strales mounts?
Here’s a link to a detailed illustrated discussion of the loading/feeding system.
Loading Sequence
The ammunition-handling system (fig. 6-27) for the Mk 75 gun mount moves ammunition from the revolving magazine to the last station loader drum, where the ammunition is subsequently deposited into the transfer tray, rammed, and fired. The handling system holds a maximum of 80 rounds. When a round is fired, each of the other rounds advances one position.
The handling system consists of the revolving magazine, the screw feeder and hoist system, the right and left rocking arm assemblies, and the hydraulic power unit. The entire loading system moves with the gun in train. The loader drum, which is a slide-mounted component, moves with the gun in elevation.
The hydraulic power unit, mounted to the carriage, provides hydraulic pressure to operate the loading system.
Ammunition is manually loaded into the revolving magazine. The revolving magazine consists of two concentric circles of stowage cells, each holding 35 rounds of ammunition. The revolving magazine turns when the hydraulic motor rotates the screw feeder
During rotation of the revolving magazine and screw feeder (fig. 6-28), around moves from the inner circle of stowage cells to the screw feeder. When a round leaves the inner circle of cells, a round from the outer circle replaces it, leaving an empty cell in the outer circle.
When a round reaches the screw feeder, it is lifted in a spiraling manner by the hoist lift pawl assemblies of the hoist as the screw feeder rotates (fig. 6-29). The screw feeder, with a capacity of six rounds, delivers a round to the rocking arms. The rocking arms alternately raise rounds to the loader drum (fig. 6-30). While one rocking arm is lifting a round to the loader drum, the other arm is returning empty to pick up the next round from the screw feeder.
The loader drum has a capacity of four rounds. As the loader drum receives around from the rocking arm, it rotates to deposit the round in the last station of the loader drum and then into the transfer tray for subsequent ramming and firing (fig. 6-31). The Mk 75 gun system uses a percussion firing system.
During recoil, the breechblock is lowered and the empty case is extracted into the empty case tray from which it is ejected out of the system. This completes the loading cycle for one round.
WanshanYeah, but it’s an extraordinarily expensive dream, & terrible value for money.
Most of my dreams are like that. Aren’t yours? 😀
Stanflex 3000 (Thetis class) anyone?
WanshanMight as well have said Belknap (or Leahy or Bainbridge) then!
Although these cruiser classes are all close to twice the displacement of the Hatakaze …
WanshanKorean ship building has been noted here in Australia (especially what with HMNZS Endeavoure popping in all the time). So the KDXII design could well suit the needs. As for Japanese designs, most of those are tweeked versions of American designs so I don’t see how they would work- though I’d love to see some DDG18 or the new DDG22 designs in RAN service 😉 (ahhh wishful thinking- it’s great isn’t it)
DDHs, Murasame class etc all tweeked US design ? Beg pardon?!
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