FonkCanard deltas
“Dassault have not defied laws of physics. Unstability was already well known on M2000 (so on 4000). Delta / canard was also several times tested (mirage III,4000, at least…).”
Rafale instability %age is far from being marginal.
You’re right, MBB experimented too with Rockwell on the hIMAT drone but diverted from the formula with their own studies (mostly on crancked deltas later on).
This ultimatly ended in the X-31 programme.
But the point i am making here is that the long moment harm was a theory elaborated from the 70s when one didn’t thought it would be possible to retain a suffiscient level of control in three axis at higher AoA.
If you have seen a Mirage 2000 in solo Display you know it doesn’t need the canard for pitch control, therefore the reasoning at Dassault was: uses it to increase lift too.
As for Rafale it is capable of pass 100* AoA and 40 kt reverse speed without loss of control, ONERA simulated the manoeuvre andit was extended duting its flight test programme previous to 1991.
I can explain why, i did it partially but the secon pic showing the air intake from front should let you know a little more, it wa what i qualified of ebnergised airflow under the canard roots from the splinter plate.
“I don’t know what is “Breathtaking”. What may look “Breathtaking” is the fact that the europeans have developped the Typhoon.”
Yes in a sense you are right. But the point made by most Typhoon commercials are its superiority in A2A, which seems a little odd considering its less advanceced aerodynamic conceipt.
What makes the fighter pilots days if i believe all report from the making of ACA are transceint performances, Typhon is like the Mirage 2000, optimised for the right hand corner of its flight envelope and have lost part of its edge with the introduction of the dual-role specifications with the extra weight it brought with it, Rafale aerodynamics are optimised for transonic where 90% of the engagement will take place.
Moreover, the amount of stealth features in their respective design is showing just how great a role commercials are actually palying in this, Rafale stealth “tricks” are a lot more numerous and visible in even the shape.
This also apply to the M 88 engines and their nozzles, just observes…
“The only source for the original study was the research made by MBB. But the delta/canard and unstability/FCS concept was all new for the 4 nations.
Am I wrong ?”
TKF 90???
No you’re not, the only difference was experience, the Mirages were fited with strakes and canards by both the Israelis wit hthe Nesher/Kfirs and Dassualt wioth the Milan/Asterix/Mirage III NG etc.
France was thef irst European country to develop three different types of deltas with unstability/FCS (2000/IING/4000) before Rafale A.
Ignoring this fact is a commercial brochure exercise not journalism.
The first delta canard to be designed in France were the Nord-‘Griffon’ 2 1957… as old as myself.
http://www.studenten.net/customasp/axl/plane.asp?cat_id=12&ple_id=456&page=0
So yes even Dassault reconise that Ty[phoon is very good in A2A byt it doesn’t mean it have the edge over Rafale expecially in ACMs and as long as machines are gonna be failable, BVR theories are just going to be that theories.
I’m not saying Typhoon is bad i say it’s not the second best after F-22 as they claim….
FonkYes the did.
What’s breathtaking is that you can still fail to undertand the law of aerodynamic leading to this.
And Rafale level of instability is far from being marginal, appart in your mind.
In France people were desiging canard deltas in the 50, Typhoon long moment harm solution is dated by a good ten years morethan that of Mirage 4000 in terms of researches and evolution of the formula.
Simple: Delta = the steeper the wing sweep angle, the steeper the drag/lift ratio curve.
With 10*more Typhoon wings alway produce more drag and less lift for an equivalent AoA plus the strakes effect are limited to an aera smaller than Rafale arrangement. i,e. They are more suited for energising the wing root and fin for more rudder control at high alpha. Mirage 2000 arrangement.
Compared to: small LEX, close coupled canards and an additional energised airflow diffused below their root by the splinter plate. OOOOCH i thought for a second that one had to learn these basics to get a pilot license.
And there a lot more into it but i s’pose you’ll be gone before the end of it.
FonkOK
58* sweept delta cantilever and downward canted canard with long monent harm.
35% instable. Maximum demonstrated AoA during flight testing 70* (as far as i know but this was duely advertised as an achievement by DEAS).
Strake on the fuselage between the canards and the leading edge of the wing what else?
Dual chin mounted air intakes involving the risk of double flame out by design (paraglide foils aerodynamics if you see what i mean).
These also involves an eccess of weight too important for a navalised version.
Note: The wing position/sweep angle are the same than that of Mirage 2000 as are the strakes.
I don’t think there is anything there Dassault didn’t know about for at least 15/20 years if not more, your turn; Rafale equivalent please?
“That’s what is still to be done…”
How? Total airframe redesign? A little too late for that.
“Please, instead of trying to threaten Jack with such arguments, let’s see what you know about the Typhoon’s design… “
First i do not threaten Jack, second i goofed big time in the post you mentioned, posting the wrong article or rather atributing to the wrong author.
Nobody is perfect…
FonkHard evidences and facts are there for everyone to see…
There are a few things that i find worrying in your post;
Why keep deying fast that most specialists do aknolege?
First: about avionics: This problem due to increasingly longer developement time is common to all aircrafts entering service now.
F-22 suffered from the same problem, assessing it solves the problem.
If Eurofighter isn’t then it is Typhoon which is suffering from avoinic obsolescence and still have to see it solved.
I wouldn’t dare taking this point as a “proof” of Rafale superiority.
Second. In the EU, AdA have more LGB capabilities than most.
The number of brand new Damocles pods in order are to be find in the Assemblee Nationale Loi de Programation Militaire 2004 and 2005 when published, and from what i can see, it’s simply not enough to equip all squadrons before 2010/15.
This validate the point i made previously, note that i visit British official sites to dig my infos…..
Then, the aircraft in French service most in need of a new pod are the MN SEMs, they are only using a day-only capable pod ATLIS.
Damocles is going to give them full day/night capabilities as they have been upgraded with some more equipement for the role i.e. internal FLIR/Night vision Gogles etc.
AdA Mirage 2000 being already sharing these two type of pod, they’ll be receving the Damocles later.
From where AdA and DGA are concerned, it’s not a matter of emergency. AASM is also used for the SEAD role and 1/7 is the AdA specialist squadron in the role.
They are therefore going to use their experience in the role to implement new tactics and procedures for the new weapon.
This in turn means that with a higher production volume, the AASM kit is going to get cheaper, at some point it might well repalce LGB totally as is is totally weather independent which is one of the priorities of MN/AdA following the Kosovo/Afganistan experience.
This also cvalidates the point i was making about AASM.
Note thah you keep re-writnig MN/AdA tactical doctrine of use of French weapons, when comparing it to that of the US which is someting totally different.
AdA and MN regularly toped the scores sheets vs the rest of the allied coalition including the USAF/USN/USMC aircrafts. LGB aren’t “la pannacee.”
So far none of your argument have stood the test of time and yet you atempt to prove that Typhoon is entering service earlier than F2 Rafales.
They have the same status, RAF officials recon they’ll be OK when they got as many as 6 Typhoon in A2A configuration in alert duty in 2007.
By this time all the 1/7 will have been officially declared Ops ready.
On Rafale perfs: considering the fact that the M is the heaviest of all rafales, you can see what they can do according to F12 pilots, or call this propaganda. Your choice.
Typhoon: 35,000 ft 230 mn M.15 (no details about airspeed during climb).
Rafale M in alert from runway wuith 1 X 1,250l amd 4 AAMs lessthan two mn, the accelration to supersonic. Supercruise in this (SU 02) configuration.
When Rafale M was in OPEVAL the MN site was reving about them being M2.0 and disclosing real datas, so did the AdA.
They changed them for the requiered specs “ten ton class and M1.8.”
Note that i had confirmation of these by many other sources even some magazines you are acquainted with. Look at their archives and interviews of programmes managers from Dassault.
Cool for them that many concurent think of Rafale being so poor in perf and so heavy.
As for what the GIE did a few years ago in terms of weapon integratoin here is a short list; not for the press but the politicians who don’t like our industrials to waste public money…
We like our datas real life and Operational conditions, not laboratory and theorical. Regards
Fonk“And yes, Fonky,”
Is this not being personal and familiar by any chance? Keep it profressional if you can.
“you’re using an acronym that I’m not familiar with, so why not spell it out.”
Raf. Rafale, GIE, Groupement d’Interet Economique.
” I’m accusing you of being anti-Typhoon and of closing your eyes and your mind to the aircraft’s strengths.”
I think you underestimate ME and Rafale.
I’m happy to admit that both Typhoon and Rafale have strengths and weaknesses (that’s inevitable).
OK then what make you so sure that Rafale is in anyway inferior to Typhoon in A2A?
Appart from comment from guys you won’t name while still been in breach of BAe contractual obligation not to disclose any informationas on the so called performances of the S’pore competition? Didn’t you write the Eastern Smile article Jack?
I seems to be able to understand what is on a design, you are supposed as a pilot ot know a little more than this, then you still manage to try and turn the tables around.
So if you care to elaborate, i did, funnyly enough, without flying it i ended up with the same conclusions on Typhoon FCs and low speed capablities than Tarnished… you see who i mean and what i mean.
Knowing Rafale aerodynamics and actual real datas on weight and top speed from the time they were given away by the programme managers, pre-GIE that is, i can see a far better picture of the two aricraft than you do.
So does the piltos who were pited vs it. So it’s Not Typhoon weaknessees it’s the myth related to is so called superiority in A2A, this my friend is only a commercial for those who know too little to understand it fully and being able to read between the lines.
But i could spend hours showing you how incomplete the design developement is, how little it brings in terms of evolution of it and what the advantages for Rafale design are. I did it for one engineers, he left agreeing on most point and needed time to validate the others.
So a better aircraft? I think not by design, and pretending otherwise is like saying that BAE/DAS and others were designing M 2.2 + deltas and delta canards for the past 30 years. You know? Mirage III, IING with canard and 2000 FCS, Mirage 4000, Rafale A with sustained M 2.0 recorded by all the press of the time etc…..
Since you can’t undertsand French, i’ll take this example, could you write in French as well sa me without first learning and then practicing? No so why pretend that companies who didn’t do it were as good as doing it than Dassault?
All you can say about it won’t change fact, the Koreean thought Rafale better, the Dutch tought Rafale better, S’pore thought Rafale better, all you got are politically correct statment saying “Bug out, it’s not good enought jys yet”.
So when it come to keeping a myth alive you guys can, designing superior aircraft is another matter.
FonkThat’s a roger chief.
We’ll like to see hard evidences of what have been alleged though. Nothing personnal.
FonkMy idea
An Iranian “stealthy” version of the F-5… They have the design capabilities to pull that one out, weither they did, i don’t know. But i think it is possible.
FonkLOL
Mate how low can you go…
Having the arrogance to tell me what the DGA think they need, without actually knowing what GIE means.
As for the Anti-British bit, chances are you’re doing more than me toward working against Britain looking at what you write.
You know what? You’re a total waste of time apparently, so i’ll let you do your home work or since you prefer the easy option, you worse.
Have a nice day sir.
FonkPirate
Pirate, made by Thales…
http://www.thalesgroup-optronics.com/dos/products/air/details/pirate.shtml
Enjoy.
FonkJack you’re as comical as ever.
All plume little substance.
Do you really think we care about what you write? I’m passed the age of being impressed by this sort of “information” my freind, and more professionals than ever are giving me confirmation of twhat i thought of yours:
Your articles on Rafale are low level in the food chain and can hardly do better than the “Chien ecrases” rubrics.
I’m this spoken whith thes guys, who told me this and that.
Yep so did i. The fact that even your own collegues are laughing at your prose is talking.
“While I’m sure that you’re better connected with Flight than I am, and while I’m sure they ‘recon’ I’m not up to it, and while I’m sure that loads of my contacts are ‘amazed’ that I have not understood what they told me, what do you think I should do to restore my battered credibility?”
“Perhaps get a lot better at what you do?
“Perhaps I could repeat the fawning and uncritical spin and exaggeration that you French spotters seem to love?”
Sure you’re really good at describing the Eurofighter fan club and thinking that it’s the mirror image of the world but as you can’t even hack in French i doubt very much you can start to see the difference.
To my standards, this is called ignorance there acure to it; learn.
“Perhaps that would get the DGA back on my side (are they hunting me down even now, wanting to give me a damned good spanking for daring to criticise the best aircraft in the world, ever?). And who are the RAF GIE and why are they after me?”
Hunting you down? Come back to hearth will ya? You’re not James bond just yet, not even a good Journo what they might do though is reconsider your access to some of theuir press conference for inethical uise of povided infos, since you are im=n effect abusing their good faith.
“Those LGBs, by the way, are blue because they are inert, not because they are dummies. Do you appreciate the difference?”
Mate i was playing with these toys you weren’t born yet dig it?.
Which do you think are most useful and most commonly used in the post Cold War world, cheap PGMs like EPW, or expensive stand off missiles like Scalp/Storm Shadow?
Maybe you can’t start to undertand the meaning of the words weather-independent and lower production cost? I do and it’s in your language not mine. Seems to me that when it come to technologic progress you are victim of a bad block.
“Which do you think are easier and quicker to integrate? (Hint: remember the UOR integration of Storm Shadow on Tornado?) “
Comparing Dassault and BAE records on integrating systems on aircraft in service or not is rather insulting. And my memory doesn’t seems to fail me as often as yours.
“A stand off missile pre-programmed preflight and launched against a GPS fix, or a ballistic weapon that has to be thrown into a relatively small basket before laser/GPS homing takes over (especially if you’re going to be autonomously guiding that weapon with an LDP)? Or an advanced next generation AAM? “
Weather-independent and lower production cost? I do and it’s in your language not mine. Do you guys leqarn from the lessons of the past?
About terminal guidance capabilities? Come back to the 21th century Jack.
“Typhoon could get a quick and dirty Storm Shadow integration (if required) long before Rafale could get Meteor, and long before Rafale could get EPW and Litening, or an equivalent.”
Quick and dirty indeed. Providing they can clear it for flying it and then release it without actually shooting itself down. This is where you start loosing the plot as per usual. There in no quick and dirty at Dassault they can’t afford it.
Plus, here is little chance a dirty clearence will be successful on Typhoon for reasons obvious for most specialists and many writers, no you yet.
“If you’re really worried about paying for what I write then why not just read Air Actualites and Dassault sales brochures – they’ll give you the kind of exaggerated, chest-beating, tub-thumping, uncritical coverage of Rafale that you’re after.”
Abot uthe word honnesty for a start? You think i buy any magazine in the hope of finding one of your unsigned articles?
Rafale GIE pdf are the equivalent of “Eurofighter dayly news” here, nothing really inusual this side of the pound.
Appart for one thing. They can’t exagerate, since they would actually breach their contract with DGA , the French gouv the French laws on infiormation and would be grilled publicly in one yet more famous (for the French and other serious press members) Assemblee Nationale cession, so they inform.
As you are you see the rest of the world. I’m please to know, it is not like youthink it is, and again Jack you just can prove to us that you’re too lazy to do your home work and too biased to do it proper, still ak=sking ofr infos on the Tornados Gr1 and Gr4?
“2For normal people with open minds, I’d stress that Typhoon and Rafale each enjoy particular advantages and disadvantages. “
Man when it come to Rafale you’re welcome to elaborate. I think i’ll be hurting myself laughing again.
“I’d happily reiterate that Rafale is a superb achievement for a single nation, and that it fits French requirements very well. It’s probably a better carrier aircraft than a marinised Typhoon would be, and it’s certainly a very good fighter bomber, with real air-to-air capabilities that Typhoon won’t have for several years, though the lead the aircraft once had has been thrown away, as RAF Typhoons (alone) are starting to outnumber French Rafales in service. Nor is Rafale in the same class as an air-to-air aeroplane or as a swing role aeroplane. It doesn’t have the same MMI, it doesn’t have the same supersonic manoeuvrability, it doesn’t have the same low speed agility, and it won’t have Meteor until long after Typhoon.”
Thank you my dear sir for this outburst of honnesty, but the bit on A2A is more than an understament;
“with real air-to-air capabilities that Typhoon won’t have for several years,”
Not the opinion of the pilot who, flew against it, mainiy the US/spanish and this; during 12F Rafale F1 OPEVAL. You’re hill-informed, and i suspect biased too but it’s just affecting you as amember of the press not my understanding of the real world.
Best example: Quoting Les Echos instead of searching for the clue in the French Assemblee Nationale is typical.
You can’t back-up your claims, i can, some of us are still active AdA/Marine Nationale, some still in touch with ex-collegues, some still very much researching for clues as to what are Rafale real datas because they disclosed sandbaged infos for guys like you to think that they couldn’t do it in S’pore.
Guess what? You’re dead wrong. I knew you didn’t get it and not from a Rafale pdf….
Think of it QinetiQ report on the famous comparative kill ratio, clues on rafale not capable to supercruise… Or doing it without using its AF (In which configuration was Typhoon doing this) Mate Mirage III Avons were supercruising at M 1.3 in 1963. You know little about aircrafs history too.
My source are true professionals when they can’t say they say so, yours are probabilly serving you the cold meal and i know why. You’ve been framed. Enjoy.
PS-Just between yoiu and I: You seems to think that what your pal Jimlad told you about ME is right, if you don’t want to end up suffering about the same amount of paranoia as him, i suggest that you forget about me being other than either Thunder or Fonk… I got no personnal grief vs yourself despite disliking your comment and i think you’re far more capable than him.
In a word, not to flatter your ego here, you have more potential than somenone who thought of a Frenchman as an-ex member of his ship crew…
Do i sound like i volunteered to RN to you?
Since we’re both airmen with quiet different form of experience, i’d dare giving you an advice, i got it from my flight instructor, ***Gal Fleury, Bretigny Chief-Test -Pilot….
Work harder and if you really want ot get noticed for the right thing, don’t bash-up what you don’t know about or pretend to do so it’s a waste opf time you’d be better off learning about it the benefits are a lot higher.
In a word increase you S-A, the turkey are those who stop learning and in your profession you sure wouldn’t like to make yourself a bad reputation.
I learn everyday from better than me and think it is an asset to be able to do so. Since you’re probabilly a good writer, writing the wrong things , i think you still have a good chance to elevate yourself above the level of such as the Lad. by just trying. Just be accurate.
Fonk@Kovy:
Please to see you defending the farest frontiers of sanity.
You do us proud sun!!! LOL
Another world, yet another danger for Les Braves…. Tally-Ho.
Pas de quartier.
FonkThese LGB on Typhee are dummies id-ed by the coulor and when it will be cleared for the weapon the rest of the world will know trust Eurofighter for this…
So far max playload is: 6,500 Kg 7,500 Kg overload.
Max TOW 23.500Kg
Rafale’s is 24.500 Kg with a target weight of 27,000.Kg. Typhoon will never ever reach this limited as it is by design.
AASM is decametric precision (10Ft) capable and have a max range of 50 Km at altitude <> 5000 m, so there is NO need for clearence on all Rafales for LGBs as the SEM/Mirage 2000 will greatly beneficiate from the slow service entry of the Damocles pod.
PDLTC-S are good on Mirages but not numerous enough, ATLIS on SEMS are day-only. Rafale M02 test-fired GBU 12 and validated Damocles but the integration to the rest of the fleet will not take place before 2008 date of the standard F3 service entry, unless Singapoore says otherwise when they buy it.
This is what Jack ommited ot tell you guys…
Here are the links to some of my personnal doc. Enjoy.
http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/3525/airfanraf0nq.jpg
http://img73.imageshack.us/img73/8417/getdata8fq.jpg
http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/7686/tandg7zi.jpg
http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/5466/cdgf18045lu.jpg
http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/275/12f6ht.jpg
http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/8940/17squadron4th.png :dev2:
http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/6089/mbringback3mf.jpg
http://img240.imageshack.us/img240/8735/ceamrafaleadaopval5ae.jpg
http://img108.imageshack.us/img108/9751/tlp5wa.jpg
http://new.isoshop.com/dae/dae/gauche/sponsors/sponsor_rafale/img/fox3_7.pdf
http://new.isoshop.com/dae/dae/gauche/sponsors/sponsor_rafale/img/fox3_8.pdf
http://www.defense.gouv.fr/sites/air/base/breves/190505__le_4eme_rafale_en_service/
To finish please have the curiosity, the download takes about 4/5 minuts….
FonkJack. i didn’t thought you’d do it again. OOOOOOOCH.
I don’t want to appear unnecessarly confrontational to the slightest but your insistance in posting this kind of biased information is somewhat suspect.
I’ve heared that you are doing the job of journalist for a living so i wonder why even at Flight International they recon you’re not up to it on that one.
You’d be far better off doing some serious home work before tackling the subject of Rafale as apparently you don’t know enough about it…
Too bad there are some educated people out there including Korea, Dutch and Singapore MinDef specialists.
As for the one you spoken to they’re amazed to figure how little you undesrtood of what they actually told you, you see i also have my entries…
Also there is a lot more about writing than just giving biased opinions, first there is i thought as journalistic ethic, you see we read your prose and to do so we also have to pay.
Would you be good enough as to provide us with accuracy and quality instead of the opposite for the same price? Thanks in advance for the consideration and respect we can expect from a good journalist.
My tip; you REALLY don’t want to be noticed any further by DGA and the Raf GIE than you already are; you’ve done enough for this ten time over.
Nite nite.
FonkDownload this
And let me know if it’s good enough for top gun…
FonkThe best way forward for the EU aerospace industry.
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