There was a story which mes told out what was your logic:
A man went to post office to send a mail. server told him his mail is overweight so he should buy more stamps and affix those stamps on envelop. The man ask back: Isn’t more stamps will overweight more?
If there was no misinterpretation, I can understood why you like that man who sent mail in that story thought more fuel carried that oppressed engine working under infaust condition .:p The more stamps, the more overweight, so the more fuel carried, the more fuel consumption will be in any different flight profile. 😎 I am not laughing at you but even we ratiocinate among your logic, the consequence will rebut yourself: if the range or engine work will be unbenefited from more fuel carried, WHY the range of Fencer is so much less than Aardvark, or put in reverse word, why the range of Aardvark go ahead of Fencer so many??
Now the problem is still here.
I am getting serious doubt on your willingness to understand, even though Sens now has arrived at very basic level.
F-111:
NTOW is 37.6t
OEW is 21.6t
Internal fuel is given with 5040 gallons, makes 5040*3.8*0.8 = 15.3t fuel.
That gives a useful payload of 700kg (=2x B61 nuclear bomb).
Aircraft is clean.
Fuel fraction is .41 (that is close to a B747)
Su-24:
NTOW is 38t
OEW is 22.3t
Internal fuel is 11.1t
Add 2x2000kg and you have 15.1t.
Useful payload is 600kg, or two nuclear bombs.
Fuel fraction is .4.
Aircraft is not clean (~+20-30% drag)
SFC +25% (conservative)
Fuel Flow = SFC * Glide Ratio * Weight
Now, we assume for the F-111:
SFC = 1 (fictional value)*
Glide Ratio = 1/10 (fictional value)
Avg Weight = 29.6t
Fuel Flow: 3.0t/h
In case of the Su-24:
SFC = 1.25
Glide Ratio = 1/8 (20% more drag)
Avg Weight = 30.2t
Fuel Flow: 4.7t/h (50% more than F-111)
So, after roughly 5 hours the F-111 is out of fuel, while the Suchoi radios Bingo after a little over three. At an average ground speed of 900km/h the F-111 has 4500 km behind it and the Suchoi 24 is somewhere at 2830km.
Somebody might be tempted to doubt some numbers, however, I will only respond to people who take the effort and show me that a 20% less fuel efficient engine and a 20% draggier aircraft can come out somewhere close to the aircraft being clean and more fuel efficient.
—————-
The values for SFC and glide ratio are taken just as they look good and you can make by hand.
However, 1 for SFC and 10 for glide ratio is not that far of reality.
Sources:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-111
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Su-24
http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/f111_1.html
To give an idea about specific fuel consumption for turbofans and turbojets see attached plots.
The TJ-example does not really represent the most advanced TJ, but even if you consider a 10% more efficient engine the conclusion is not dramatically altered.
[ATTACH]162829[/ATTACH]
Shows SFC over power setting for three altitudes (one per plot) and various Mach numbers (lines in each plot). For the typical mission points (low alt, M0.7, max dry thrust; high alt, max dry, M0.8) we see an SFC of ~1.3-1.4 for low level and 1.1-1.2 for the high alt cruise. That is a bit more than for more advanced TJs, but not far away.
[ATTACH]162830[/ATTACH]
Same for the TF-30 (of the F-14 in this case). One can see an SFC between 0.9 and 1 for low alt and M0.9, and about 1 for high alt cruise. That is in line with other turbofans.
In conclusion: the TJ shows a 20 to 40% increase in SFC, depending on altitude, Mach number and power setting. The reduced SFC in afterburner does not really save the day as a typical mission of the F-111 would see the afterburner switched on not more than a few minutes at egress.
Or short: Fitting aircraft with turbojets for subsonic cruise is crap.
For experts or those who want to become it: the often quoted SFC from Wikipedia is normally at M0, 0km altitude and full dry power. So, that would be the lowest line on the right hand plot (while that is still for M0.5 resp. M0.7). You’ll see that by this the static SFC values are much lower than real flight SFC values. For civil engines, normally the design point is given. For afterburner SFC max power at sea level Mach 0 is given, again, only truly representative for a taxiing aircraft.
But as I said, don’t get confused too much by the complexity of reality.
In some countries the average citizen only has 5 or 6 years of schooling, while in others is 12 years of school and by coincidence the nations that have an average of 12 years of school for each citizen have won more nobel prizes and have an aircraft industry more developed education is the fact that devides that
Fun fact: the nation that wins by far most Nobel Prizes has a school system that is considered crap even by the majority of its habitants.
if you’ve seen the last thread on the Indian LCA’s engine, which got locked, you’ll know that the guy who started it, Buraidiah, who claims to be from KSA but speaks Urdu, the national language of Pakistan, started it with the sole purpose of making fun of it and thereby, irking its supporters..
similar reactions would happen in any thread where a poster would be deliberately looking to **** off others. try mocking the Rafale or the Typhoon in a thread created specially for that purpose and you’ll see French and British supporters of that program reacting for sure.
See, when I see the word “Indian” in the headline I don’t click at it. When I see “Typhoon vs Rafale”, I don’t click at it. This forum has ~10000 members, and probably in widest sense 10 times as much regular visitors (I guess less). Only a small proportion visits the Modern Military Aviation section. So, any statement that aims at national pride will not really spread over the world, any second class TV show has more spectators.
And when I make fun of the French and the British, they understand that … most of the time. We have European Soccer Championship for the humiliation thing.
When honest, you have no problem to give away, that there was no Russian Tf at hand, when the Su-24 was demanded.
At least no afterburning TFs.
Still a mistery to me why they didn’t retrofit the RD-33 or a derivative of that engine.
So F-22s are not stealthy till they penetrate Russian air defences?
Although the details of Russian air defence systems are not known 100%, I guess that the USAF can at measure the performance of its fighter against a modern radar. With computer simulations you can easily make the opposing air defense smarter (or more capable) or slower. Using all that you can figure out a useful strategy according to the set targets of a campaign and the intended rate of loss.
Although these forums contain lots of white noise, I like the moderator’s attitude towards it. Most people, even those people I nearly never agree with, have some interesting points to share. On the other hand, my ignore list will soon greet its tenth member (3 of them have already posted here).
Anyways, I think most white noise is produced in topics covering Chinese/Indian/Russian aviation. I don’t know why.
I remember some very useful and resourceful discussions, too.
Sometimes reasonably correct English language would be nice. People, there are two SHIFT keys on your keyboard, and all those funny sentence marks.,-?!””
There is no demand from me to post any pix, to prove how many fuel that Su-24 or F-111 carry. All data I just used from yours. That’s ok, you quote them quite well.
But the keypoint here as you posted the gap of fuel consumption between Aardvark’s engine and Fencer’s engine is only 11%. The 11% is a very data to display what the difference between Turbine jet and Turbinfan is.
I will shut up if you also prove the range of Aardvark only larger than Fencer 11% or even 15% for VG inlet used. But Here is 30% in addition to data of fuel carried by Su-24 with 2x2400kg EFT under this condition are more than F-111 almost 20%.
I have to point out that range data on internet always go mess if we scrutinize them
Here we saw some data of combat radius are much more acceptable even convert them roughly to be range, which will still be less than F-111’s.The range on Czech web 3600km I saw somewhere appeared auther have done speculation on this.
On the other hand, with the wing could be swinged, warload of Aardvark won’t be more than Fencer too many, do you believe? :diablo:
Combat radius and range data from internet sources are very unreliable as they don’t have comparable flight profile. The range given for the F-111 might be a “best case” and that of the Suchoi 24 an operational one.
Anyways, the penalty for turbojets compared to cruise flight optimized turbofans is easily in Sens’ mentioned region, at least for prolonged cruise flight at altitude.
Ferry range is still a side effect of the true mission, were the radius is more like 600nm at best. The F-111 can fly its mission clean with one nuclear egg in the bay. The Suchoi must use external loads, which constitutes a considerable disadvantage for the mission of nuclear low level strike.
In case of the Tornado this disadvantage was accepted as internal weapons bay isn’t worth the cost in weight and volume for anything than nuclear strike and a smaller airframe can be used.
well,
That data from Sukhoj web is the most doubtable. Let’s see:
with two dropped external tank, Su-24’s range only is 2775km.
with no external tank, F-111’s range could reach 4000kmthe internal fuel Aardvark contains is approxi 14tons
whereas Fencer contains internal fuel approxi 11tons, plus two external tank will be 16tons approximately.two more tons fuel carried cause less 70% range? is this reasonable? unless the fuel consumption of engine Su-24 used is 50% higher than F-111’s? is it possible? who can help to check the fuel consumption?
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=76441&highlight=F-111+Su-24&page=3
Read only the posts of Sens.
The Suchoi 24 uses turbojet engines which have a significant SFC penalty in the intended Mach/altitude region. Very strange although that they didn’t fit in a turbo-fan later. The F-111 uses the TF30, which isn’t known for reliability but its good SFC.
The difference in range is still rather surprising. However, those figures are often not comparable as the details are unknown (flight profile, speed, reserves). On a normal ferry mission empty tanks are not dropped. In that case, taking them at all is a doubtful decision for a ferry flight (heavy on take-off, 400kg extra weight all through the flight and ~10 to 20% more drag for only 40% more fuel).
The original Su-24 (the T-6) was even more TSR-2 like using a small triangular wing (don’t know if it was blown).
That is what I meant. I am sure the flaps were blown. Suchoi had experience with this technology from Suchoi 15. There was a fixed wing version of the MiG-23, too. That airframe, however, has nothing comparable in the west.
When they find out, that the single fin solution will do for the mission of the Vigilante.
The Russians did find out, that the twin fin was in need for the mission of the MiG-25.
But here some similarities do end, because in that days, the engines at hand did dictate the size of an aircraft mostly.What both had in common in that years was not the agility of each aircraft, just the stability for safe operation.
Correct:
The MiG-25 got its twin fins for lateral stability at high supersonic speeds.
For the F-15 it was rather used for increased stability at high angle of attack.
Twin fins were used on WW2 bombers, nothing revolutionary to use them on fighters.
I have the feeling that the Russians sometimes cut the conceptual phase short by using the American designs as starting point.
Good example is the Su-24, which resembles a TSR.2 and a F-111 from the aerodynamic configuration.
Well, yes i understand, the aspect of a wing plays a lot on the low speed regime, but unstable designs gave the EF, M2000 and other 4th generation planes a decent performance at low speeds, keeping the delta -althought is also due the better T/W-, so it has been done? , any try? any project?
What im saying is something like, ok…we have the mig-23 (tu-160/b-1), lets replace with the mirage 2000 (unstable concord or tu-144)
Interesting..the last NASA model -2707-300 seems to avoid a large delta to avoid a backwarded lift centre, any of these designs were unstable?
The shifted center of gravity is primarily for supersonic and transonic performance. It adds agility, but I wouldn’t overrate it. Besides the CoG the adjustable wing camber and the usage of vortex lift really saved the day. In sustained turn the tailless delta is still not the best solution.
Ok, lets take the Concord, lets move it CoG, and lets turn it into a over sized M2000 or rafale….so it can replace the Tu-160?
Any report about any attempt?
BTW, dont confuse it with the B-2, since this is more an FBW auto-control handling design than a aerodynamyc/inertial unstable one
Why do we have to move the CoG?
I guess no bomber could match the supersonic range no the Concorde.
7900kg for F-16C Block 25 taken from its flight manual (for empty equipped including gun ammo, two AIM-9 and stuff). Without missiles we have appr. 7720kg.
Sorry I mixed the block number.
I quote myself:
Why wasn’t it flown beyond Mach 3? I guess because the technical specifications did not allow it (the Russian otherwise never missed to set a record if possible). I guess the first and only prototype wasn’t even intended to do so. In order to build such an aircraft with so little experience, one has to do extended risk reduction. All Russian manufacturers did it with prototyping, they relied more on prototypes. Unlike American industry the first prototypes hardly achieved the overall performance (reason may be the contractual logic of the USAF, where the initial aircraft need to demonstrate the required performance). They Russian often initially build testbeds, carefully used them to gain experience. Not a bad approach, just a different, more time consuming often (not always) and more costly.
You can see similar approaches on most MiG and Suchoi aircraft, the Buran and other. Some American and European aircraft programs also saw prototypes that didn’t match the performance of the intended aircraft (see EAP, or the many X-programs of the 50s). Also the XB-70 was a prototype from the onset and with this fact in mind that it wouldn’t see service, many issues that plague an intended operational design could be evaded.
Taking a risk-reduction prototype as prove that they were unable to reach that performance in general is flawed logic, proving the opposite is equally flawed.
Fact is that the Russians realized – as the Americans – that a Mach 3 bomber is not worth the cost. They apparently realized that later, but I guess they continued the T-100 because it used technology that needed to be validated. The T-100 was apparently the first FBW aircraft of the Russians.
Likewise the Americans: they used the XB-70 to validate technology.
Note that Tupolev continued with work on the Tu-160, an aircraft that surely uses FBW-technology and I guess a Tupolev engineer would assure us the important role the T-1000 experience played for this program.
Validating the Mach 3 performance target was of limited importance. No further use for it.