DDHs, Murasame class etc all tweeked US design ? Beg pardon?!
Wan you should know by now that I don’t have pardons to beg for 😛
Apart from the Kongo & Atago classes, what Japanese surface ships have any connection with US designs? And what about King Sejong?
Wow umm ok, I guess it’s just me that can actually see the US connections here then, most notably the US weapons and electronics installed, similar machinery to US equipment. Certain vessels are clearly of US design but changed to add certain capabilities introduced at the time of construction, Hatakaze is a modified Truxtun class, which removed the nuclear propulsion unit and installed COGAG machinery (using British Speys and Olympus engines which the British were happy to sell).
JNS Hatakaze DDG171
USS Truxtun CGN-35
Tell me you can’t see the similarities.
Excellent work MPA, it is indeed GNS Anzone P-30, seen here with GNS Achimota P-28.
Truth be told I was looking for pics of GNS Yogoga P-29, but I can’t find any leading me to suspect that this vessel is now out of service and acting as a spares source to GNS Achimota which is of the same class.
Anzone is a clear case of the resourcefulness of most African navies, taking an old fishing trawler and turning it into a patrol vessel, imagine what they could do with the money spent on just one Zumwalt class vessel!
Reviving this topic, there has been talk lately of what the RFT will specify for the next vessels:
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So given these stats, what vessels are available? If I were in a position I’d be suggesting Bertholfs- yes I know they are bigger than specified but they fit the need and offer flexibility on an unprecidented scale! The 56mm gun could easily be replaced with a 76mm Oto, bringing it in line with standard fleet practice. It uses all the other standard RAN equipment already, and the aft section has a ramp for rapid on the move launch of sea boats for boarding parties. Two hangers allow for both helo and UAV ops.
What was the compartment with the bridge-like windows beneath the port bridge wing? Flyco?
You mean this area?
That area I never had much to do with, but it was the area that controlled all forward ops; Bow movements, crane safety watch, forward flight deck ops even RAS control- it was sort of a multi purpose function center
Was that an original feature?
Yes
Would have interfered with the Chief Engineer’s cabin on an LSL. I’m guessing the internal space was used quite differently on Tobruk.
Apparently we did change more than just a couple of things on Tobruk which is why you Poms wanted to buy it off us 😀 So successful was our redesign that we’ve had many offers over the years for Tobruk. The new Sir Galahad was closer to Tobruk than the former vessels of the Round Table class and incorporated many of the Australian design changes, but was still not as capable as our vessel.
Here is an interesting link to specs of the Round Table class with a pic in which if you look at the following pic of HMAS Tobruk, you can clearly see the former is much smaller.
By comparison, here is a link on the same site to the specs of HMAS Tobruk, or Modified Round Table class
Interesting to note that though we have a larger crew, we carry a smaller troop load. The other specs are also interesting to compare but I feel I should log in and make some changes to Tobruk’s stats- I’ve never ever seen her operate any squirrels and they don’t mention Blackhawks which do operate off her.
I have only ever seen one Chinook operating off her forward deck as the aft deck isn’t big enough to operate this helo! I have seen two Seakings, flying off her- one forward and one aft, and though never seen it, I know she can also operate up to four Blackhawks- I have seen a Seaking aft and two Blackhawks forward though!
This last pic is just because this is a nice ship to talk about and I am happy to have shared some of my experience from her with someone who understands what I am talking about 🙂
The British LSLs could take at least 12 Challengers on the tank deck, but I notice that Chally is about 6″ wider than Leo1 and Abrams is another 6″ wider again. We tried to keep that narrow trunking aft clear for embarked troops to do their PT. The container on the tank deck at the RHS of the pic above was Galahad’s “gym”. There was another (reefer) container semi-permanently on the tank deck to expand the frozen stores.
I don’t think Tobruk ever carried 12 AS-1’s at most I only remember eight but six was the usual, this allowed room for a few support trucks and a couple of Land Rovers. Tobruk never carried any extra containers as the upper deck was usually always occupied with two LCM8’s As in the pic below of one being lifted off for use (you’ll probably find that the other is already in the water on the other side awaiting clearance for manouvering behind to receive their load)
We never really needed extra cold storage because that was on of the things thought off in the first place- Tobruk’s freezer and cold storage were the size of a compartment each providing enough stores for 65 days at sea, or in real terms- 35 days at sea with enough provisions for disaster relief to sustain a small community (6000) for 1 month. Tobruk had a gym built in as part of an Army requirement right from the begining- there are 6 cycles, 6 treadmills, 2 weight benches and a couple of other machines for various other muscular work.
Looking at that pic with the LCU, how did you handle the interface between ship’s ramp and vehicle carrying landing craft? The LSL ramps couldn’t take the weight of a tank or heavy vehicle unsupported so we used a short Mexeflote Ramp Support Pontoon (RSP) moored underneath the outboard end of the stern ramp. Wasn’t necessary when offloading to a Mexe since it could act as its own RSP, but was needed for LCUs and RCLs. I’ll dig out some photos later.
Stern ramp transfers in pics- there is a pic of a dozer moving from LCM8 (AB1051) to HMAS Kanimbla as well to show that this is a common practice in our service.
The AS-1, giving clear evidence that the aft ramp could take the weight of this machine
A rather dramatic shot of a stern docking with an LSH, not the lines crossing over for stability- this wasn’t usually done, we usually had two lines either side; one tied off towards the flight deck and the other tied off two decks down about mid ramp level, the higher one usually tied off on the LCM8 towards the aft of the craft or mid way on an LSH.
As I said- it’s standard practice for us down here, no matter which vessel it is, stern transfers are done all the time with all sorts of machines.
HMAS Tobruk on exercise with Americans during Rimpac, note the AAV’s charging up the stern ramp into the tank deck 😀
As mentioned, we handled (and still do on Bays) the landing craft requirement with Mexeflotes, but could also carry an LCVP on deck, though I never saw it done (on an LSL, I have seen it done on a Bay).
During that Norwegian exercise Galahad was primarily carrying 539 ASRM so we had 13 rigid raiders, two LCAC(L)s and an RLC Workboat on the (upper) vehicle deck.
During recent exercise “Pacific Sud” with the French, HMAS Tobruk took one LCM8 and two LARC V’s as well as ASLAV’s in the tank deck from New Zealand and Australia- though the ASLAV is amphibious, due to operational concerns- all ASLAV’s debarked via the LCM8 or FNS Jaques Cartier- guess they don’t trust the ASLAV’s to float :dev2:
From what little I remember of the load plan, they packed folded Sea Kings in athwartships and maybe had as many as twelve down there, all on the tank deck. But it’s possible I’m not remembering this very well. I don’t think it was ever done, it was just another possible string in the LSL’s bow.
I’d take it that this was an operational War scenario should the Falklands ever come under threat again- it could be made into a makeshift helo carrier/ASW platform. A nice idea to have but never put into plan!
Galahad, alone among the British LSLs, could take a Chinook on the vehicle deck. I forgot about this when commenting on Chinook operations on the other topic, but I really can’t remember anything about the SHOLs or even whether it could be done whilst making way.
Here’s an old pic from back in the early 80’s of HMAS Tobruk with a Wessex on the forward flight deck with two flying by
I tried to find a pic of a CH-47 on Tobruk but for some reason I can’t (maybe I am not typing the right things in), but they do make a big hoohar down here when it’s done- sort of like a lifting of public spirits seeing this action taking place when faith and morale towards the forces is declining.
The LSLs, especially Galahad, really had an amazing combination of features and lifting gear. Galahad is/was the only one with a lift (the boat is sitting on it, it’s a 20T scissor lift). She had a 20T travelling crane on the tank deck (you can see a spreader for it in the photo), a 25T crane serving the after hatch/lift and two 5T cranes serving the forward hatch/ramp and the two small holds beneath the forward part of the tank deck. Also winches and gear to secure a Mexeflote on each side, and the bow and stern doors and ramps.
I think the boat photo gives a good idea of how small the tank deck really was, that’s its maximum width. Tiny compared to the Bays that replaced them. There was actually a load plan developed for use of Sir Galahad as an aircraft transport, filling the tank deck with Sea Kings brought down on the lift.
One of my favourite LSL tricks, because it’s essentially illegal under the civvy rules that the RFA pretends to operate under, was to steam along an open fjord at low speed (3-4kts) with the stern ramp open and the end dipped in the water (there are no other watertight doors down aft, the ramp is it). An LCVP would drive up to the ramp and you could transfer personnel over it whilst underway.
An LSL really gave you a large portion of the capability of an LSD in a wonderfully small package.
Yeah I remember seeing Tobruks tank deck for the first time and felt disappointed because I had always perceived it as being far wider! It could hold the Leopard AS-1’s but they were a tight squeeze- now we’ve got the M-1A1 AIM’s there is no way that these can fit- hence why the RAN is getting the new LHD’s and new LCM8E’s (The Army LCM8’s can’t take the Abrams either, someone should have thought about that before buying the new tanks!
As is widely common knowledge, HMAS Tobruk (L50 for the complete nerd) is different to the British counterparts, our craft has a 70tonne Derrick forward of the bridge, this was used to lift LCM8’s on and off the forward deck area for deployment aborad. I remember hearing that the British were so impressed with Tobruk and the changes we’d made to the basic vessel that they wanted to buy her off us. Well we still have her and she is a life saver to the South Pacific and South East Asian nations- many of whom have been greatful that she’s deployed to help after natural disasters.
An interesting side note, HMAS Tobruk has different designations depending on the mission- she is referred to as either an LSH or and LST, LSH for disaster relief and LST for excercises with local forces where ASLAVS are deployed aboard.
Interesting what you you said about the load plan and it being a Helo carrier, I don’t think many could be carried, at the most four Seakings, with one on the aft platform. Tobruk was capable of deploying with a CH-47 flying off the forward deck area, this wasn’t done often as LCM8’s were more flexible for use in our missions, but she did keep the practice up- C Sqdn/ 5 Regt love doing this drill as it gives newbies in the RAN a heart attack due to the size of the Aircraft coming in- though in recent years it hasn’t been done due to the current operational tempo of the Chinooks.
I know your favourite trick- we do it as well 😀
Ocean’s davits were occupied with her own LCVPs so I didn’t think to mention that possibility.
But your excellent detective work has given us the answer, it was a Condock after all!
Wan Strikes again!
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