crobatoWell, Don’t ask me. Ask Kanwa. It’s Kanwa who said that PLAN’s future surface ships would only come from Russia and the Sov II was a magical ship with all the new toys, like VLS etc…
Kanwa probably got all that BS from the Russians and Ukrainians eager to sell the PLA all sorts of crap. The BS about China wanting to buy the Ukrainia or Slava could have came from that Ukrainian general who is now head of their defense ministry, but it seems to me its the Ukrainians trying to get rid and fast sell the ship to the Chinese any way they can.
You would never get this kind of info from the PLA. Ever.
crobatoAnd how did you arrived at this conclusion? China tariffs rate against US are still higher than Japan in general. Adding to that are China’s complex imports restrictions, secret trade rules, trading and investment restrictions, and the more controversial WTO implementation, currency peg and intellectual property rights issues. I don’t see how trading with China is so much easier than with Japan, especially when Japan and US now has increasingly used WTO to solve disputes.
‘Cuz none of the rules are actually observed, if you know what i mean.
crobatoAnd how did you arrived at this conclusion? China tariffs rate against US are still higher than Japan in general. Adding to that are China’s complex imports restrictions, secret trade rules, trading and investment restrictions, and the more controversial WTO implementation, currency peg and intellectual property rights issues. I don’t see how trading with China is so much easier than with Japan, especially when Japan and US now has increasingly used WTO to solve disputes.
‘Cuz none of the rules are actually observed, if you know what i mean.
crobatoAnd one more.
crobatoVery easy to make a 7-blade skewed? Sure, I’d want to see you do it… I put a lot of money on it that you can’t!
It’s irrelevant and moot. Because it’s already done.
crobatoActually there are interior video footages of the Songs that were shown in CCTV and selective captures are posted in the CDF. They all show a clean highly digital intensive work environment that was obviously a generation ahead of the Kilos. The visit in Hong Kong also confirmed the presence of anecholic tiling that reduces further noise.
crobatoI dont expect Chinese lecture on the noiseness of subs , thats the last thing you would like to talk about when you want to discuss Chinese sub development.
Appereance can be deceptive , Subs has lot to it than just appearance .
Please stop even remotely comparing the Agosta 90B to the Songs , There is a generational difference bewteen the two , Just because Chinese built their Song Class in mid nineties dosent make it equal to the Agosta90B,T-209 ,Kilo and other subs.
At least the Song should be equal to any eighties sub. It has features typical of the most modern subs, such as the ability to fire antiship missiles underwater and skewed propellers. If you think they’re not important, then I bet stealth is not an important feature for a fifth generation fighter either.
Its Just like saying since we managed to develop the J-10 in early 2000 , so it should be comparable to the F-22.
But it should be comparable to an F-16, not to a MiG-21.
Firing of AshM is no great achievement at this time , Most of the western and russian subs have been having this capability since decades , Its just a natural progression , A Foxtrot of nineties would be capable of doing the same
But there is no Foxtrot in the nineties. And not every Western and Russian sub have that capability either. And certainly not the Foxtrot.
The first Chinese sub to fire an antiship missile underwater is actually the Han Class and they have done that in the eighties.
An unsucessful project ( not a total failure ) can be continue to progress
I’m sorry but no unsuccessful project ever got into both operational and mass production status.
, If it gives you a learning curve to develop a better sub like Yuan , Please dont throw numbers to defend its sucess , Kilo’s were purchased when Chinese realised their sub technology was generational behind the West , Kilo is a good move to leap frog to something much much better , and upgrade Chinese Sub technology and knowledge , IMO it was a right move by China, As it is greatly helping the Yuan Project.
Kilo purchase was independent of the Song program. The fixes that brought the successful 039G variant of the Song does not have anything to do with the Kilos, nor was there any Kilo derived lesson. In fact, Kilo features are quite the opposite of the Song, such as the sail and rudder designs, as well as sink hole patterns. In addition, the Kilos themselves were having problems, quite behind in their control systems, and can’t be considered successful in Chinese service.
China went for the new 8 Kilos because of the Klub missile complex and the fact that China lacked enough yards to build subs fast enough. The Russians simply had more yards available and they were vacant, while Chinese shipyards are chocked full of export orders. When the new 8 Kilo 636EM contract was made, China even went to stipulate that the subs made be made by four specified yards, with two each for every yard to get the subs ASAP. China is probably disappointed to get all 8 subs only by 2006, with the first two received this year. By then Yuan would have finished all its trials.
crobatoThe IN Foxtrot have undergone total upgrades and many Indian Sonar , Command system are installed in it ,Panchendria etc .
Its not about having a 7 Blade skewed propellor , Its about getting it right , and there is no doubt that Song didnt meet much success and so China decided to go for more Kilo about 8 636(besides the 4 ordered in 90’s) and after gaining technology from it built the Yuan class which is going through its trials.
Somehow you failed to consider that they indeed got it right and built over a dozen subs.
Hahahahhaha………… You can sell that crap to someone who would believe that , Toshiba thing is just blown out of propotion by Western Media and Intelligence , to undermine Russia sub building achievement , Russia gained some good knowledge on Western Sub & Technology , Through the Walker Spy case .
Having the theoritical knowledge and having the tools to implement it is two different things.
From http://www.taiwandc.org/wp-2002-09.htm
[B]According to Jane’s Defense Weekly, the first Song, built with assistance from Israel and others, started sea trials in 1995, but proved a failure. A second substantially modified Song began sea trials in early 2000, but analysts say these are far behind schedule and have yet to be completed.
Old news. As you have seen, nearly a dozen subs have been built since then.
Israeli participation is kind of doubtful. Which Israeli sub did they copy it from?
They learnt some lesson from the not so sucessful Song , They looked at Kilo closely , and possibly some generous help from Pakistan through the Agosta90B route , They built their new Yaun class sub , And perhaps the logical thing to do.
Yuan = Improved Song + Kilo + Possible some German,Israel,Pakistan.
You made this up?
Indian Navy Operates the Modified Foxtrot , Kilos & T209-1500 , All three have a role to Play in the IN , Foxtrot might be the oldest of the three , But better than any Song or Dance.
On what basis? You got acoustic signatures and stuff like that? What is your basis that a Foxtrot (which can’t fire AshMs underwater and has old style acoustics) is better than the Songs in combat performance?
Foxtrot is a cold war veteran , and has much better repution and sucess world wide , India Navy operates the 2 modified Foxtrot ( Indian Sonars ,C&C …), It had 8 Foxtrot , The two still in IN service is a modified Foxtrot it will continue to serve the Navy for some time. FOXTROT was a modern at its time when it was purchased , and still continue to serve the IN , speakes volumes of its sucess and capability , Kilo & T-209 is state of the art sub of 1990 , Scorpene is for the 21st Century.
So what? The Chinese have much success with their Mings also.
Excuse me , The debate here is Foxtrot vs Song vs T-206 , And In the context of this I have stated that Song is a unsucessful but a learning curve for China
Which you have no basis to claim being unsuccessful. The Song is completely operational, has participated in exercises, is in MASS PRODUCTION, and is generally considered one of the major threats.
Are you suggesting if ever the Song was offered to the PN , they would have ever gone for it , Think about it.
If it was offered to the PN, it would be circa 2000 and past period.
crobatoWith 1995 tech you won’t be making a Foxtrot either. Subs are designed from the ground up in order to incorporate features and plumbing for and like digital command systems and underwater launches of AshMs. I don’t know where these people hatch crazy ideas.
crobatoWhich Foxtrot can fire AshMs underwater, has anecholic tiles, digital command systems, and 7 bladed skewed propeller? The Russians didn’t even get such propellers till Toshiba sold them a milling machine in the eighties, which is used to make such propellers for the newer Akula class. This caused major controversy calling for a boycott on all Toshiba products.
The main problem of the first Song sub, which remains operational to this very day, is because of the sail design that produced too much noise underwater. In the second design, the sail was redesigned and made simpler, and the production rolled ever since. There isn’t any other major difference between the first sub, and the rest. There is no reason, or even of any evidence that the Russians or the Israelis were ever involved to rectify such an obvious problem. Certainly the need is not there. German assistance is the only possibility there, and the Songs may incorporate lessons from the Type 209.
The Songs themselves learned nothing from the Kilos, which are double hulled subs, while the Songs were single hulled. The Yuan itself is not a correction of the Songs, as the Songs still continued production even after the Yuans were introduced. The Yuans were meant to fill a size class between the Songs and the Type 093 SSNs which according to the US, is already on trials.
Once you get past the nose, the Kilos and the Yuans are nothing alike in sail design, rudder design, drain hole patterns and all the like.
As for the Pakistanis opting for the Agosta, the Songs were never offered to the Pakistanis in the first place. But it is in the realm of possibility that design lessons from the Agostas may have passed to the Songs from the Pakistanis.
crobatoWe don’t know much about the performance of the Song at least publicly. I’m sure the USN and its ONI branch have been tracking and observing the subs. But we do know it comes with at least noise reducing features like the anecholic tiles, which were visually seen when a couple of subs made a port visit to Hong Kong, and a slow turning, seven bladed skewed propeller. And it is capable of launching AshMs like the YJ-82 underwater. As the PLAN is the final judge of its character, the fact that the sub is in a mass production streak shows you the confidence the PLAN has on the sub with at least 12 to 14 subs now in operation, and a production rate of one sub every 3 to 4 months, the last one seen in the water just last September.
The Yuan class used a lot of technology developed from the Song and less from the Kilo, other than the nose and the double hull design. In fact, the Yuan is considered a derivative of the Song.
I think the Song learned from the Type 209, with Germany being a major investor in China, and I think the powerplant is German derived. Lots of European techs end up in China these days due to the massive investment.
Foxtrot is more equivalent to the later versions of the Ming Class.
crobatoIs the 2nd pic a dummy round??? Cos I don’t see the air-intake…..?
It is a test round but not a dummy round. Patterns of stripes are used for visual observation during a flight test, so definitely it flies. The intake I presume might be retractable.
crobatoI can’t see the Modern Military Aviation, Navy and Missiles forums though I can still access the Army forum via the Search function.
crobatoI can’t see the Modern Military Aviation, Navy and Missiles forums though I can still access the Army forum via the Search function.
crobatoThe PLAN never sends her best to make good will visits to other ports. Even fairly older vessels like the 136 and 137 Hanzhou and Fuzhou Sovremanny class don’t do good will visits. The 167 Shenzhen Luhai class is the designated good will port visit ambassador and her crews are trained to be so.
I’m just surprised to see China developing the Varyag for an aircraft carrier of her own considering the pro sub faction in control of the PLAN today. Maybe there are new leadership changes or so.
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