crobatoYou can always get around that by slightly altering the dimensions etc,. to be misleading and not actually that of the factual plane. In any case, Trumpeter could have probably cleared the model with the higher powers to be before putting the model in commercial production. The fact that in the PRC, they don’t truly hide the plane anymore. I’ve seen a TV ad by Greer, a major Chinese appliance maker, using J-10 like planes in CG in their ads. What they still try to hide are the actual details about the plane. straight numbers, performance figures, specs, etc,.
My first impression with the model is that it seems nice, but something is not quite right compared with the original.
crobatoright what was the last flame war i got into?, everytime someone expresses some opinion thats contradictory to yours you flame at them all the J-10 topics are prime example of that. Anyway i am not even touch such this subject, when did people posting in the internet become valid enough source for factual information.
Look whose talking about flaming. You got to be one of those idiots jumping at FC-1/Pakistan topics.
And i assume you once again have facts or some evidence to back it up or is just one of those claims like when you guys claimed that HQ-7 in JW-III and Luhai etc were stop gapmeasures last i recall those vessels have yet to be fitted with anything new. For VL system to fitted on it it would require extensive structural modifications (ie deck penetration).
In the Luhai it was meant as a stopgap, but then the VLS system originally meant for the Luhai could not come to be back in the ’90s. So it was rebuilt for the HQ-7/reloader. But then, look at the new 051s being built in Dalian that is very likely to have VLS.
Rarely has a large VLS system been retrofitted on a vessel already built because of the issues like cost, time and top weight issues (the french have yet to fit aster onto la fayette due to those reasons).
You don’t have to retrofit a vessel if you plan it well ahead enough.
No its not 12 vls cells its 2 to 4 rows of 12 vls cells or is that what the experts told you? So what you are suggesting is that china knew the specs of VL-shtil in late 90s and was able to make accomdations for it in 054 which seems rather inplausible.
In any case, the Chinese would already be designing the ships in anticipation for their own VLS designs, and the VLS Shtil-1 is just incidentally a stop gap for that goal that happens to just conveniently fit—or even made to fit preplanned Chinese requirements. Note again, the 054 is also a later design than both the 052B and 052C destroyers, both of whom lacked the indigenous radar to guide the ASMs (both destroyers had to rely on Mineral-ME) while the 054 relied on the much later arrived indigenous radar (Type 343G?) which was too late to be used on the destroyers.
IMO both 54 and 54a will be procured, 054 FFG will be built in large nos as cheap pocket destroyers and will replace older PLAN ffg. Whereas the latter will be procured in small batches to serve as Multi purpose FFG.
054 is just temporary, and 054A is just yet another stepping stone from the first. The Chinese objective is to ultimately design and create their own mid range VLS SAM system.
crobatoOther than a superficial resemblence, I don’t see the He-100 on the Ki-61, which had different wing design, cooling system, etc,. The He-100 also suffers from a very high wing loading which makes it poor as a dogfighter while the Ki-61 is quite a maneuverable plane. Sure the Ki-61 uses a licensed made DB601, but considering what the Ki-61 got from that engine, it was quite impressive.
I certainly think that the Shiden, the Hayate, the Hayabusa, the Raiden, all have no connections to German, Italian or Allied designs. Neither are the bombers, dive bombers and the torpedo bombers. Are there anything Japanese that looked like a He-111, Ju-88 or Ju-87? And certainly not the Baka bomb and whatever that pusher prop canard of a project they had building at the end of the war. The Japanese just have a way too different philosophy to mimic even the Allied concepts—and they paid dearly for it with long range but highly incendiary and poorly armored aircraft. Their approach to design favors maximum agility from lightness while the West still factors robustness into their designs at the expense of weight. Closest aircraft they have anything conceptual to the West is probaby the Shoki (demon vanquisher), which is when the Japanese learned the value of a high performance interceptor that can climb fast enough to strafe bombers at the expense of agility. But then again, I don’t see any the Japanese copying from the West to create the Shoki—it was something they learned a bit too late.
crobatonationalistic jealousy complex lol this coming from you, all u can resort to childish name calling, trying to incite flame wars and BS with little fact to back you up. I just expressed my opinion that 054a looks enlargened with little or no fact other no facts to back to up you claim that i am completly wrong, you need to learn to seperate opinions from fact.
Lol. How dare you call the posters at the CDF thirteen year olds, HUH?
Do you know how many people there actually SERVED, or connected to international defense publications? HMM?
Flame wars and other BS? I see you one of the main sources of it in this forum.
Yeah, you expressed an OPINION. And I disagreed with you and I pointed out no one else supports that opinion. Then you go off tangent by calling members of the Chinese forums 13 year olds?
Anyway you know claim that 54 is same size 54a because it looks similar to it you do realise thats a model which doesnt really seem to built to scale. Just like a while back you made the claim that there will be no rbu-1000 on it because you say so.
It is not similar to it. It is exactly like it. There is no point for a size increase since from the beginning the 054 is large enough to carry such systems, but resorted to using the HQ-7 with reload when the appropriate SAM system isn’t available yet. The HQ-7 with reload is a stopgap.
For them to create a bigger ship would mean to create an all new ship, since the moment you changed the hull dimensions, you change the entire hull. Where do you have this idea that hulls are plug and play, huh? In that sense, it would be vastly uneconomical for them to create a ship design that was already obsolete right off the board since they would have to create a new ship once again just to change the SAM system.
So you just have to create the bigger ship in the first place and stick to it.
The hq-7 launcher is roughly 3 meters longer (similar to length cotale/hq-7 canister round) and the hatch is roughly same length as well. So you are telling me that a row 12 vls cells of shtil-1 take up less space in length than ~ 6 meters.
Not to mention there is a gap between the launcher and the hatch. So overall, there is more than enough space for that to fit 12 VLS cells. Just remember, that the octel launcher with reloader is already holding 16 missiles between the two of them in this given area. The fact that 054 has HQ-7 plus reloader makes it quite bigger than the Jiangweis, and the size increase built into the 054 isn’t just there for the benefit of the HQ-7s.
crobatoWTF? 13 year old teenagers? The Chinese forums and military watchers DID a lot more to reveal about Chinese military development than the Pentagon. As for journalists, well, you’er talking about international defense journals like Jane’s and US think tanks. Tell me how is your competency compared to them, HMM? You’re full of complete bull as if your nationalistic jealousy complex from the BR forums could understand the difference. The HQ-7 with reloader takes up quite a bit of space since previously, you cannot fit that on a Jiangwei frigate, but something as big as a Luhu destroyer. The 054 can fit the reloading HQ-7. Maybe you have not see the reloading HQ-7 properly. Not only do you have the octel launcher, but you have the hatch on the back with the reloader.
The FACT is that the ship shown with the VLS Shtils is unmistakenly a 054. The outline and the superstructure cannot be mistaken. As if you think you know better. Sheesh. Don’t give me a laugh. If you have no business in knowing better, go elsewhere, since we don’t take BS from a nitwit like you.
crobatowell size argument is purely opinion unless you have some evidence, anyway know u claim that 54A wont have those RBU-1000s because you say so? but doesnt that support my argument that bow is longer than 054. Also super structure also seems enlargened to carry light buld and fregat.
Sorry, but it is the opinion of everyone else, including knowledgeable posters in the Chinese forums and the CDF, not to mention journalists, who saw that picture that the mockup is a future version of 054. The superstructure and the design of that ship is exactly like the 054. You are the one who has no evidence.
crobatoVery nice pics. The photographer really knows what he is doing.
crobato1,2: new camo flanker for Mr. SOC
3: This plane has the CFTE logo…any idea?
The J-11s with the ligher radome, could be a new batch or version, and I suspect likely with a different or modified radar.
crobatoFlanki panties and the last pic is an unknown UAV/AC
I can’t put a handle on that particular missile or rocket. Looks like a two staged one. It’s definitely not standard armament.
crobatoSharper nose -> Higher speed
Longer body -> More fuel -> Longer range
Datalink -> You only need this if you’re targeting a ship on very long ranges. Also implies that the PLAN may already have the data passing infrastructure to support this.
crobatoOld planes are only for display, including some MiG-23s and Q-5s. Not exactly sure how China procured those MiG-23s, but I bet they were the ones traded from Egypt in the seventies.
If Minskworld defaulted, it only means it will be owned by a state owned bank, so the government will have the final say about its fate. If the country still has the slightest shred of having any interest in a carrier at all in the future, even for study or practice, then it may survive. If not, then indeed the country has no interest with carriers at all other than amusement or scrap metal.
Maybe the Kiev theme park will do better. The company behind it have been looking for all sorts of foreign investors. Varyag is still sitting there in Dalian gathering rust.
crobatois dat the maximum kinetic range for the weapon or the more effective range for its NEZ..i think the latter is more relevant
The maximum kinetic range for that missile is 120km.
crobatoThat does not sound like the PLA owns the Minsk.
crobatoNo the VLS Shtil does not take up more room than the HQ-7 with reloader. Probably takes up less. The future 054 does not necessarily have to have the mortars.
crobatoIt is universally agreed by economists that averaged over a few years, Chinese official growth rates consistently overstate real growth, not understate it. Occasionally, as may very well have happened in 2004, the inaccuracies & dishonesty in the system temporarily produces the opposite effect. Political pressure for an easing of growth because of overheating leads to underreporting, for example.
That’s quite incorrect. Industrial growth is over 10% a year and this is quite measurable from increase of power consumption which has reached to 13% increase per year despite efficiency measures. There is also the increase of imports and exports, foreign reserves, currency buying. On the other hand, the service economy is greatly underreported and so is the black market, mainly because there is no accurate way of reporting them or the government has not figured out a way to document them. At this time, it benefits the Chinese government to underreport growth, in order to avoid the impression of overheating, and this has been true for the last few years.
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