crobatoI see, but don’t you also agree that a Su-35 will see an FC-1 at a probably twice as longer range because of it’s better radar(lets say RC400 will see a Su-35 at 100km, the Su-35’s N011M will see an FC-1 at least 170km+), so while the Su-35 is looking, it can go low or just play around with it and such.
That 100km range is not likely to be just “seeing” but rather locking on. Like I said, the antenna size of the FC-1 can amount to 700mm in diameter, which is pretty big, and like in the LCA, you can do that by reducing the back component size with electronics miniturization and properly designing the gimballing servos to set the antenna back. An antenna around 700mm can have a search and detect range of up to 160km. Read the F-7MF account in the other thread. The F-7MF has an antenna about the size of the FC-1’s and its sibling competitor. You can also increase range by increasing signal/HPRF frequency and power and iimproving your signal processing with increased computing power.
And remember, you keep forgeting the RWR factor. If one jet is scanning, it would warn the other jet via RWR. So you really do not have a first see advantage. And then you have to come within NEZ (no escape zone) of your AAMs. That’s not like 70km in range, that’s more like 20km. The idiot who shoots his missiles first at 70 to 100km range is likely to lose those missiles with misses, while the patient and daring pilot who will hold his cards until the missile’s NEZ range is reached, will almost get a guaranteed kill when he launches.
The argument will not change if you replace F-7MF, J-10, LCA, Lavi, F-CK-1 on the FC-1’s place.
The Su-35 will not have a BVRAAM advantage over the smaller jet if both jets are carrying medium BVRAAMs of similar performance.
But if the Su-35 is carrying an AIM-54 kind of weapon, then it’s another matter.
50-50 chance is not a good idea ehh, so after all FC-1 will have a good chance of shooting down a M2K, Mig-29, Su-30MKI or whatever?[/QUOTE]
crobatoI don’t know what the FC-1 has but remember, the bigger aicraft has more room to carry more EW countermeasures (whether Israeli like on the MKI or Russian/Chinese on the MKK), and if either one survives, guess which one will run out of his missile first 😉
The bigger airplane also has more fuel and can dictate the engagement from the start and could simply bingo fuel his opponent, making his smaller opponent run back to the base to get more fuel, which makes it more vulnerable, you can see this in Eritrea vs Ethiopia.
This argument works only when the planes are in an equal number basis, but not if there are more of the smaller planes are around. It also will not work if the larger jets are over in the smaller jets territory which tends to be the case since larger jets are often used in more in offensive missions while smaller jets play a point defense role.
The converse of that argument you have is that if the larger jet is caught with its pants down carrying a large amount of fuel. The nice thing about tanks if you don’t mind, if you can punch them out in an emergency, and you’re suddenly a light weight. The plane with a little too much internal fuel isn’t going to get rid of its gas that easily and will be in a maneuverability disadvantage.
crobatoif you argument indeed has some truth, you are gambling that the Su-30MKI pilot will be an inexpert flyer and he won`t see the FC-1 approaching, that is just gambling, playing the odds and expecting that you won`t be seen, too much of a risk and too much expectation on luck, the Su-30MKI working with LCAs, MIG-29s, Mirage 2000 and AWACs can easily shot down any stray FC-1 or located them, only the F-35 can hide and kill them with a major degree of impunity and without counting on luck as a FC-1 pilot wil need
No pilot are inexpert, and planes do not operate as strays. But even with expert pilots, smaller planes are still harder to eyeball. And this argument is about big jet vs. small jet, so the LCAs, MiG-29s, M2000 and AWACS do not count. The argument does not change if this is the LCA vs. MKI, or F-CK-1 vs. MKK, or J-10 vs. J-11.
crobatoCrobato I was talking about a BVR fight, when a Su-35 would lock on to a FC-1 then get into it’s radar range to fire the R-77, the FC-1 would lock on too….
So what would be the outcome of this, who would win?
That will be a 50-50 chance.
The FC-1 will lock on just about the same time, given that their missiles will have roughly equal ranges.
Note that the FC-1 will have a lower RCS profile, and the Chinese do have and use RAM in their planes. The lock on range against the FC-1 will be lower than against some planes out there.
Even assuming that the Su-35 would use RAM coatings, there is still an RCS advantage for the FC-1, so chances are, lock on against the Su-35 will be aided by its RCS profile.
Position will also play an important part of it. The plane who is flying lower will have a radar advantage using a look up mode, while the plane flying higher will be forced to use a look down mode against ground clatter, reducing range. It is easier for a plane to lock against a target facing up, than a plane to lock a target facing down.
crobatoA F-4 versus MiG-19 well that argument is believeable, Su-30MKI versus FC-1 well the Su-30MKI is more agile, the Su-35 is not a clumsy and lumbering F-4.
An the FC-1 not more maneuvrable than the Su-35
But an FC-1 is also quite an agile jet. Even among its first flights, it was already doing loops and rolls, not just feeling the flight system but pushing to the edge.
The PLAAF has shown that even a J-7E can take down an Su-27 in a dogfight. First sight, luck, position and pilot skill will determine the outcome of a dogfight with as much chances as agility and maneuverability. Small jets do have certain advantage—they are harder to eyeball, much easier to fall out of sight. They have excellent transient performance over larger planes, moving from one energy or turn state to another—the undefinable quality called “nimbleness”. The old A-4 Skyhawk was unmatched in transient performance for example.
crobatoI am interested in this, when the Su-35 gets in range of FC-1 to fire the R-77, it will come into range of FC-1’s radar, the FC-1 locks on and they both fire on their weapons, who really wins? In a dogfight, an Su-35 would undoubtly tear up a FC-1.
In a dogfight, there is always no sure outcome. Obsolete planes by a generation or two has shot down planes before in a dogfight. Planes that are less maneuverable than the other has also shot down planes that are more agile.
The basics of winning in WVR is one rule first, and it is in a word in WVR—“visual”. The guy who sees the other guy first will have at least one decisive advantage.
Then there is position, pure pilot skill, and then sheer luck.
Even in the PLAAF, there are guys there who can take a J-7E or J-7G, then successfully and repeatedly tear up the hotshots flying the Su-27s, J-11s and Su-30MKKs.
crobato> even if the SD-10 is little bit better in performance.
definitive conclusions about is performance wont be known for
many years yet. the CIA will get first dibs if the PAF obtains it 😉until then its all speculation and statements by the makers
themselves, not unbiased 3rd party review based on released
and trusted information.
The Chinese owns R-77s for sure (a source in KANWA suggests that China has a pending order of as much as 1000 R-77s). They will surely try to design a missile that would at least equal to better the R-77s they have.
crobato> I don’t think Russia is ahead of China anymore
* russia/ussr has developed and fielded dozens of engine types
* dozens of competitive fighter types
* dozens of advanced missile types
* dozens of radars
* dozens of large aircraft upto the AN-225 level
* dozens of successful SAM typeschina does a better job in commerical manufacturing but in the military
area, Russia is still far ahead. thats why china is still spending billions of
$$ in buying up russian arms and trying to collaborate in many programs.Name a few chinese defence products made totally locally that are equal or better than what russia has on the table today.
Quite in the possible equal list
052C class DDGs
ZTZ-99 tanks
KJ-2000 AWACS radar
KS-1A medium SAM
HQ-9 SAMs (to the S-300PMU1)
Yuan class sub (for diesel sub)
KLJ-XX fighter radars
YJ series AshMs
HJ-9 antitank missiles
2208 class FAC
FM series MANPADs
crobatoI think it may be because of the amount of light. If you look at the white hatch on the second one it appears darker than the third. You can also see a lighter/silver area just beneath the canopy on the other J-11s and UBKs but cannot see that area on the first UBK.
That’s because it does not have much of the silver area there like the UBKs that belonged to the 2nd.
Note that the first UBK has a pilot name plate that the other UBKs didn’t have. Note that the name plate gleams quite well under that lighting.
crobatoThe head of the centerline pod thingy does not seem as round or cylindrical like a fuel tank. Is this a ground surveillance radar pod?
crobatoPLAAF is so much into dumb bombs. I got pics of Su-27, J-11 (no. 49) and Su-30MKK with dumb bombs. Use of MKK just for dumb bombs is even more outrageous than this.
But dumb bombs have one advantage. They are cheap and plentiful. And just remember that the PLAAF isn’t as concerned about collateral damage as the USAF. The PLA loves saturation attacks, as you can see with their obsession for MLRS. They like to map out a certain square of land, then bomb the hell out of it and kill every living thing within that square.
crobatoI like the old prototype camos used on the 100X series. Got a lot more character to it.
But I guess PLAAF leadership thought it costs a little too much money and effort to keep doing it that way, e.g. the Mao suit argument. So they went to the light blue mottled camo we see in the later planes. Now as production goes ahead, they have even taken out the pattern so the newest planes are now just plain and boring grey blue, same kind of paint they’re using on their J-11s and new J-7 production.
crobatoChina should cancel out its order of Su-30s and develop a longer ranged verion of this super duper medium tech fighter, nationalism taken to an extreme is a bit sad lads.
There is a strange ironic wisdom in your statements which you didn’t even know. The PLAAF is NO LONGER acquiring Su-30s, if you notice. It is the Navy air arm, the PLANAF. And the Su-30s are not for A-A purposes, they’re for antiship use.
And they are building hordes of smaller fighters, 50 engines alone of AL-31FN being shipped each year to China to build J-10s, whom leaks to Richard Fisher has disclosed looking for about 1200 to 1500 planes in total. And then you have the JF-17 to possibly add to the J-10 horde, not to mention the upgraded versions of older planes like J-7G, F-7MF and J-8F.
But there is another twist to this. Why build hordes of small fighters when you can build hordes of BIG fighters if the big fighters can be built –CHEAP–. Once you have taken the price factor off the big fighter, you can build a horde of big fighters and have your questions solved both ways. That’s what is going to happen to the J-11, China’s licensed Su-27. By manufacturing the engine themselves, they can reduce the cost, and that’s what is going to happen soon. Just remember China bought the Su-27SK for 33 million each. With domestic labor and components, you can be looking for $20 to 30 million each, which is even half less than that of a Western small fighter nowadays.
Since you don’t really have to go use a lot of expensive small composites on the J-11, as you might do with the J-10, the price gap between the J-11 and the J-10 narrows. This is especially when you consider scanned leaks of Chinese documents of the J-10 being exported is from the $25 to $30 million range.
crobatowhy compare the Su-35 versus the FC-1? lets compare the F-22 versus the FC-1 or the FC-1 versus the F-35, because the americans are god example of expensive light and heavy weight fighters versus cheap crapy jets like the FC-1 that are completly obsolete versus F-35, F-22, Rafale, Eurofighters or even Su-30MKIs
A F-22 armed with Meteor will shoot down as many FC-1 as any enemy can scramble at them, the F-35 wil do it also but in a lesser way, a Eurofighter will do the same with Meteor, AIM-9X and IRIST AAMs no way a less agile fighter such as the FC-1 can compete, the J-10 or JAS-39 are easy to face just deploy lagre numbers of F-16Is or F-15Is and you have a good defence
The F-22 is in a different generational league from the FC-1 altogether. Let’s come up with a theoritical small fighter with the same tech level as the F-22. Let’s call it the F-40. The F-40 uses a single GE-F414 engine (22,000lbs thrust), and has about the same size and weight as the FC-1 (or the single seater Korean A-50). The jet will have extensive RCS reduction measures.
The problem of the F-22 is that it spends so much effort hiding from an enemy it does not spend an equal amount of effort trying to find an equally stealthy opponent. When you have equally stealthy opponents, chances are your inborne fighter radar will not be able to detect stealthy opponents at long range. Rather, you have to rely on AWACS or surface radar with long metric frequencies to detect the target and vector yourself closer. However, the F-40 can do the same, using external sources to scan for the F-22 and vector towards it. If you use your search radar, you literally give yourself away.
Chances are both fighters will end up being in close range at each other, either engaging with WVR missiles or snapshooting BVR missiles at close ranges. When you’re close, the smaller fighter has an advantage of being more difficult to eyeball than the larger jet. It also favors the side with the greater number. The guy who lights up his afterburners first to use his speed will also be the first beacon for any IR AAM to lock at. The situation for the smaller fighter would even be favored more if helmet sighting systems are used, which when combined with the next generation IR AAMs, would be literally be who gets to eyeball his target first, wins.
crobatoForget the Su-35, look at the Su-30 MKI. With the BARS radar, it is lightyears ahead of the FC-1 it can lauch R-73s before the FC-1s even know that the SU-30 is there.
No. The FC-1 would have been ticked off by its RWR when the BARS radar scan it. Most RWRs today would also give you the rough direction of the emitter. The Su-35 also uses the BARS radar so there is no change there.
By the time the MKI has to get into range to use its R-77s, it would have fallen into the range of the FC-1’s own radar (both revised Grifo-S7 and Thales RC-400 are spec’ed to engage at 100km—the revised antenna servos allow for an array diameter of 700mm, only 30% smaller than the BARs). The SD-10s will have equal to slightly better range than the vanilla R-77.
If the smaller fighters are supported by AWACS, surface ships or GCI, the big fighters would have no detection advantage since the smaller fighters would be vectored by the AWACS or surface radars, and would have no need to turn on their search radars, allowing an element of surprise. Rather the big fighters would be detected first by the AWACS or surface radar.
Networking actually goes a long way and even furthers the small fighters argument (remember the JAS-39).
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