but would the FC1 stand a better chance? the problem with the current J11-J7 makeup is that when faced with a capable oppenent, your J7s can only contribute by getting within WVR to engage the enemy while your J11s take all the enemy BVR fire in the maintime.

with the FC1/J7MF, you have a hell of a lot more BVR platforms, which will help to take some of the pressure off your best fighters so they can have a chance to perform and not just get overwhelmed straight away; also, the bulk of your fighters can also get into the flight quicker, giving you an edge in terms of numbers.

in that scenario, the FC1 dont appear to be that much better off then the J7MF provided the J7 can hold a radar the same size as that of the FC1.

the advanatge of having the MF is that it can also open up a new possibilty of getting both the J7MF and J7G without putting that much extra strain on logistics.

having yet another Mig21 derivative might seem dull and somewhat backward, i agree. i would love to see the PLAAF take the FC1 in large numbers and make many mods to them. but i am just not sure if they can afford it.

I can see what you’re saying. But the thing is, a J-7MF is an additional investment when you ALREADY invested funds on the FC-1. It’s not a question whether the F-7MF is cheaper than the FC-1; its an issue that the FC-1’s funds had already been spent and allocated and you’re still spending developing another fighter on top of that.

There are so many advantages on the J-7MF. The J-7E has been very popuilar with the PLAAF pilots (some prefer to fly it over the J-11). It’s also a strong sentimental favorite. The logistics is there. The manufacturing infrastructure is there. You can use a domestic engine like the Kunlun on it.

But you are also initiating another expensive development cycle. The plane might take another at least three years before it can enter service. You’re spending money on top of what you already spent on the FC-1.

I also mentioned the J-7s are short legged and the payload is small, which hinders them against a Taiwan scenario.

At best, the J-7MF is yet another balm, a short term solution, and a little too late for that too. If it was ten years ago it would still be okay. You’re spending resources on a short term solution. In contrast the FC-1 still has more development legs—it can still be lightened and strengthened by using more composite sections for example. The latest RD-33 variants can go up over 9,000kg, even 10,000kg, which means the RD-93 can follow the same development path. Compare to the R-13/R-25/WP-13/Kunlun class of turbojets whose development potential is almost exhausted and is a certain dead end. You won’t get much more power from an engine of that size and diameter, and being a turbojet, you can’t be as economical as a turbofan.

J-8F will be materially more expensive but again, its development funds has already been consumed, and the plane appears almost available for use without consuming more development resources and cash.

No. Moscow Times overestimated and said it was 28. Pinkov on the other hand, got the number right at the start.

There already is an intention to order 24 more Su-30MKKs—China needs at least two more Su-30MKK regs for the PLANAF. But it appears being held up given China’s satisfaction of the MK2 upgrade and results of the MK3 testing. If the MK3 testing is successful, China might order MK3; if not, the order goes to the MK2.

China is dragging its feet on the Su-27SK upgrade issue.

If it’s an AWACS, Russia will supply the plane complete with an empty radome. But the plane is structurally complete. The Chinese will add the radar and electronics. This is a joint Sino-Russo project.

I suspect in the Chinese AWACS, there should be some Russian assistance to get the Chinese radar and datalinks to talk with the Russian made planes like Su-30MKK, and ships like Sovremannies and the Tarantula boats which I think may be next in the shopping lists, and SAM batteries like Tor-M1 and S-300. But you cannot have a pure Russian system e.g. A-50U because you also have to coordinate the indigenous elements—the J-10s, the J-8IIs, the J-7s, all the new Chinese destroyers, and HQ-9 SAMs and so on.

My position now is that the new Chinese AWACs is a hybrid—and MUST BE a hybrid for logical reasons. You need a system to get all the Chinese and Russian stuff to coordinate—or it defeats the purpose of being a controller. The same plane must be able to coordinate Su-30MKKs and JH-7s in a bat for example.

The new Chinese destroyers are said to be sporting both Russian and Chinese datalinks for example; again these ships act as a bridge between the older Chinese indigenous types and ships like the Sovremmanies.

In the end though, I think this alleged Chinese IL-76 that is meant as a tanker not AWACs.

I do not really know, if 053 is one of two early prototypes.

052 and 053 are prototypes. Those are not regular unit numbers.

They only started developing radar 1976-1978, and it was meant to use the PL-4 missile. So it was indeed, a BVR radar using pulse doppler. Why no development during that time? No funds and a lot of the smarter engineers had been victims of the Cultural Revolution, where you get “re-educated” because you’re better educated.

SR-4 (Type 204 for the PLA) was not an operational success but it was a technical one for the Chinese. Developers were given technical achievement awards for it. First time Chinese attempted a pulse doppler BVR radar, beyond the simple short range monopulse radars used in J-6 and J-7 (which is a little more than a glorified radar reciever). It laid the path to other radars.

There was a flameout happened in the first J-8I prototype, not with the J-8 prototypes. It was caused by a faulty hydraullic oil pump that sprayed oil.

Reasons given for the 10 year delay.

Factor disturbs which besides ten years of disorder, to new machine development rule understanding insufficiency, arduous underestimate, also is an important reason. The reflection in the development work, one is studies in advance insufficiently, experiments not fully, the technical key is not is in the lead the research solution, but is depends on ascends the sky confirms, the attack. Two is the new engine, the new board installation, the new craft, the new material development has not been able the advance step, with main engine coordinated development, so that creates restrains or hamper each other. If annihilates 8 airplanes at first design proposal is uses the alternating current, the fire control radar all-weather, latter because in the short period cannot develop, can not but temporarily change the direct current, the range finder daytime. The navigation artillery and the rocket bomb choice also has the similar situation. Three, has not grasped to the new machine test flight rule, for test flight airplane too few, the test flight funds was insufficient, lengthened the test flight cycle. In the initial period, only some airplane at the test flight, in addition the airplane engine, the end product frequently appears the breakdown, created the aircraft grounding the time to surpass the time which opened flies. Moreover, the airplane adjustment test flight originally should arrange in the aircraft factory test flight station to carry on, is advantageous for the factory, in the design prompt processing test flight question. After waits the airplane basically to be at the complete condition, then changes over to the appraisal test flight unit to carry on the stereotypia test flight. Not does this, also lengthened the test flight time. Four is the technology command system and the administrative chain of command several passes through the change, develops in particular the intermediate stage, cannot implement the effective direction, the dispatch, the coordination, affected has annihilated 8 airplanes the development advancements.

“More bullcrap from Sens. You have been shown evidence and you still deny it? The base J-8 and J-8I are identical except for the radar”
Why not show this by a photo of the original J-8. All so far shown or linked are from
J-8Is.
http://www.china-defense.com/aviation/J8/J802.html

after this “..identical except for the radar” ????

Did you check the Chinese link I gave you? The one with prototypes 052 and 053?

All your link said “little aerodynamic changes”.

Why don’t you check the prototypes here.

Look. The prototype is basically THE SAME as the production planes.

http://afwing.com/intro/j8-1.htm

I idiot thougt, it has something to do with airflow, starting from the inlet duct.

It was not a problem with the airflow. The R-11s are not the most reliable of engines. Same problems are found with the J-7s.

The specification for all items, material and production “know-how” about this can be found in the blue-prints too for copying? A listing about shortcomings from few flight-tests included?

I never thougt so far, how stupid by the way.

Pretty much describes you GIVEN your next statement.

No 1:1 copy by this, but a modell for a general layout. Nothing more and nothing less was my simple minded conclusion, when it comes to the J-8 prototypes alone.

Truly simple minded.

You probably never even seen what a blue print is like. Even for a simple HOUSE.

All blueprints would strictly include the dimensions, part by part, frame by frame, spar by spar, nut by nut, bolt by bolt. It would include all the weight, lift, and stress calculations. It would include the composition and type of metals used. For an aircraft, we’re talking a lot, sets of books full, detailing every part.

A blueprint is in essence, the main plans for building the plane including all the numbers.

You are probably thinking maybe, wow a blue print is like one of those cutaway drawings in a book. Hmm?

They tried to par things down on the FC-1, so it will be easier to build by the Pakistanis. I heard stories, probably speculators, saying that the Chinese might tweak their own variants with things like adding composites to reduce weight.

What makes FC-1 more expensive is the imported engine and an airframe stressed for higher payloads. They also designed the plane with more space for avionics. Then you have the FBW, the FADEC, and the rest of the electronics.

J-7FM for 5-6 million is a bit too much already. Back in the old days, MiG-21s cost less than a million to make.

I say there is a lot of logic behind the J-7FM, all in the cost and logistical side. YOu don’t have to import an engine for one things—everything can be indigenously built. The logistical infrastructure is there.

On the other hand I’m not sure what’s the logic and the benefit of a souped up Fishbed based platform going against the best the West can offer. Even the FC-1’s chances on the PLAAF is still a fifty-fifty. The J-7 line is being gradually phased out; the J-7G is the last hurrah, as well as the J-8F for the J-8 line. I don’t expect J-7G and J-8F to be built in substantial quantities. They’re just being built until something better can fill up the production lines. PLA is saving every last money for the best.

Here is a good page on the F-7MF, the biggest of any I’ve seen on the web.

http://air.xuexue.net/pla/j7mf.htm