Su-30MK is not same as earlier Su-27. Sukhoi has made a very clear statement about it that modification of Su-27s have made the performance worse thats why they are going to original idea. and range figures on there website provies there point. So no point in debating.

And really which ones? The Su-30MK2 is pretty much like an Su-27UBK with a slightly different tail. Does the Su-30MK2 have canards? Eh?

I said F-104 came earlier than F-4. Prove this statement wrong. ur link has nothing to do with the issue.

Came earlier by what? Two years? Where is your alleged proof that the Starfighter is technologically backward compared to the Phantom? Where is your proof that the Starfighter is not capable of Mach 2?

they are not separat issue. when u have more thrust. u can be generaous about loading, fuel capacity and performance. it is the single engine that makes aircraft complex. Twin engine 777 is not less complex than 4 engine 747.

BULLSH*T coming out of your ears. You just sound more and more ridiculous every passing day.

Having more thrust does not automatically mean you can lift increased weights. You need a bigger wing to generate more lift. You need increased structure to hold the increased weight. All that means correspondingly increased complexity.

You’re equally ridiculous saying that a twin engine 777 is more complex than a 4 engine B747, especially when compared against the latest 747s. Maybe you want to go prove that a MiG-21 is more complex than a Backfire.

and those higher quality standards add to complexity.

What an idiot. A higher quality standard does not mean increased complexity. It only means the stuff is BETTER MADE.

what this has to do with design complexity.

Really? Is a better made hammer more complex than another hammer?

and how much is super hornet common with Hornet? u have to understand Superhornet is developed in 90s with limited numbers compared to F-16.So Boeing has to recoup development costs. M2K-9 is not cheaper than Rafale in same year prices. Single Engine are just more expensive.

A Super Hornet is called a Hornet for chrissakes. There is still commonalities between them. The F414 engine for example, is still derived from the F404.

By your standards, F-16 must be more expensive than B-2 eh?

Dassault does not want to make M2000 anymore and so it “claims” M2K-9 is not cheaper than Rafale.

But they were buying aircraft essentially made in early 80s. Not something new like Superhornet/Rafale/EF. and it cost them alot without weopons.

And what does it change? Eh? Seems to me you have really proven yourself so stupid allegding single engined aircraft is more expensive than twin engined aircraft by principle.

GO PROVE A 737 being more expensive than a 747.

again nonsense. Su-30K became operational with IAF March 1996. It is already 10 years. and i would assume it has logged ~ 3000 hrs. Su-30K cannot be upgrades because it is more expensive and time consuming instead of just buying New which is much faster. Algeria will get Su-30MKA this year. Only 1.5 years after contract.

No, they have logged nearly 2000 hours, plus some of the planes were acquired later due from the failed Indonesian deal.

Read that person post. he came out with this kind of figures.

Read this guy’s rank. He is a Brazillian military attache. Someone with the knowledge and position may have told him.

and six or seven PAF F-7 crashed in 1 year or so. as J-7 becomes older there crashes are now more than MIG-21. It just show its quality.

Really where? Show me the seven F-7 crashes that took place in a year.

I am only reffering to Design of the SuperCritical wing. Nothing to do with Tests. and those testsa are laugable they are not speeding up the Project but it has fallen Behind SSJ which is tested at one place.

BS. It is the testing and modification of the wing. I don’t know what you mean by falling behind SSJ, since ARJ-21 has already garnered over 40 orders and is due for its first flight this year.

do u think putting LCD makes it Western Cocpit. there is no other difference in information display?

And who invented LCDs in the first place? Russian?

Those Tu-154 were built in 70s/80s. and it meets only that era regulatory environments.Show me how many Airbus/Boeing from that era actually flying in Civillian Service?. And in 90s only Banking System make Airbus/Boeing Bigger not the technical capacity.

No. The Chinese Tu-154s were built much later than that (nineties). And Russian jetliners don’t pass the world safety regulations, which is why they’re not allowed to land in many airports.

Look at An-124 and compare it with C-5. it will take $50B to creat airaft comparable to 150ton load capacity in WEST. and Russia did modification with small amount of money An-124-150 in less than two years. They built world largest Civillian factory in 70s.
For China it is impossible.

Small amount of money and how much are they charging for it.

Flying does not mean it is certified right away. this thing has alot of distance to cover before it becomes indigenous. it is mere collection of foreign parts and design expertize.

Same with the SSJ which is using Western avionics and SNECMA expertise on the engines.

Alteast by 20% percent compared to Su-30MK2. Just look at range and speed figures with lower fuel. so if Su-30MK2 is 20~tons class (38.8MTOW). Su-27SK is 16 tons(3530km range) and Su-27SM (4000km range)would be in 15 tons class due lighter avionics. and it nicely fit into 30 ton MTOW of Su-27SK(4tons payload) and 33 tons for Su-27SKM(8 tons).

You have actual figures to back that up? MTOW has nothing to do with empty weight. Anyone reading your statements will honestly LAUGH AT YOU.

38.8 MTOW is actually an emergency load (e.g. for example, possible use of nuclear device). The normal MTOW of the Su-30MK2 is the same as everyone else.

Starfighter came definitely early and It is not just Mach 2.

BS. What kind of fantasy are you in? You must be lying out of your teeth to say that.

Go ahead and hang yourself in embarrassment.

“It was the first combat aircraft capable of sustained Mach 2 flight (not just a brief dash) and its speed and climb performance remain impressive, even by modern standards. I”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-104_Starfighter

What a piece of BS coming out of your ass. I decided to highlight your statements just to show the freaking stupidity you have degenerated.

If the plane cannot load that much, then it is not loaded for it, and the design provisions for such loading therefore is not there.

Having excess thrust has NOTHING to do with the structural reinforcement you need to lift extra weight. Thrust and structural reinforcement are two SEPERATE issues, yet must be MUTUALLY designed into the plane at the same time.

That’s what makes twin engined fighters even more complex.

Safety measures in single engine design don’t actually take up much weight. Just higher quality standards after all. If someone is stupid to think that it makes the engine HEAVIER, weight increases in all rotating parts would actually make the engine nonfunctional, because the very weight of the moving components are all precisely calcuated to give you the high RPM (you cannot achieve high RPM with higher rotating mass.)

have u ever consider the fuel and maintainance cost of twin engine fighter interms of life cycle before making affordability decision.

You should take a mirror and follow YOUR OWN ADVISE. Twin engined planes indeed cost more to fuel and maintain.

UAE contract price is $6.4B for 80 aircraft in 1998 dollars. Two billion extra for weopons. F-15K contract price reduced by Boeing to $3.6B for 40 aircraft in 2002 dollars.

offcourse when F-35 goes on full development cycle with 183 airframe than come back and see which one is more expensive.

You are still laughable for claiming that the F-16 is more expensive than the F-15 and the F-35 is more expensive than the F-22.

I can surely know the difference between contract and flyaway. Most of F-16 are repeat customers with already infrasctructure in place. F-18E is new addition. F-16 is definitely more expensive for new customers.

YOU DON’T KNOW ANYTHING BETWEEN CONTRACT AND FLYAWAY based on these statements alone.

As a matter of fact, F-18E is actually being sold to the USN and the RMAF—both of whom were previous Hornet customers.

Poland and the UAE are actually brand new F-16 customers.

It is definitely smaller than F-16 with lighter engine.

And how much?

where is the need for Su-27SK and Su-30 overhual?. It has been 16 years already incase of Su-27. and Flanker needs alot more flight training initially than MIG-21. Just look at Su-30K how much they are used. Russian claimed they arlready in beyond 200hr per year. Somewhere in 300 hr region beyond warrant.

The PLAAF started to overhaul their Su-27SKs starting in 2004, with the first batch received in 1992 and 1003. The Su-30Ks cannot be upgraded because in 2006, they are already close to the end of the airframe life (over 1500 hours). These planes are received in 1998.

where u got original specification for MTBO for MIG-21F.

Where did that 1500 MTBO came from huh?

and how many time per year these fighters are overhauled. when u have large fleet. u can afford down times.

You can say the same with the Russian and WP fleet too.

and how many intitally are crashed for F-7M and need overhauled.

And how many do you know actually? You can google MiG-21 accidents and most of it are coming out from the MiG-21bis fleet. Where your so called “two or three” so far eh? Early March this year already another MiG-21bis crashed.

I clearly understand what different sources posted including Ukranain. they cleary referred to [b]Design{/b] not testing alone.

Antonov is helping to do some tests independently, while tests are also being conducted independently in three other places around the world. What don’t you understand here?

It is called dependence on Airlines. when Airlinese entire fleet is based on GE engines for maintainance and particular cockpit design for pilot training. Since Chinese are not the innovators and all the time saving money. u can hardly expect anything different from them. Russain cockpit design and Engines use different procedures although they have recently started Western style not sourced Cockpits for commonality mostly for exports.

Lol. Russian cockpits now starting to copy Western cockpits and suddenly you think they are innovative? Pot calling the kettle black.

GE engines are the most reliable in the world, and having this brand name behind your product helps sales. The various Chinese airlines cannot even use the Tu-154 or various other Russian airliners. The few Tu-154s ever procured were just turned into spy planes.

And BTW, ARJ-21 is already being assembled and will fly this year.

I did not claim that for the F-16I ‘Sufa’, but the F-16A/B ‘Netz’.
The Russian precedent is named J-10 f.e..

The Netz are not modified with Israeli radar in the first place, at least when they were new. If upgrades happened, that happened only well into the late of the airframe’s lifetime. The J-11Bs are coming out new with indigenous radars installed.

The J-10 is not a Russian aircraft.

Simply said there is no precedent for this from the Russians.

How many J-11B do fly with WS-10 engines right now?!
The GAF operated both engines (J-79) with F-104G at the same time.
When the overall dimensions are the same, there is no noticeable shift in cg at all.
The F-16 is interchangeable with heavier F110 f.e.
You are aware that the J-10 and J-11 are FBW at all!

The PW F-16 is not directly interchangeable at all with the F-16s with the GE engine. The ones with the GE engine had a redesigned engine tunnel, starting with a bigger mouth in front. You cannot put a PW engine into a plane made for the GE engine and vice versa.

Weight changes (CG shifts) means reprogramming of the FBW. The GE powered planes were at least 300kg heavier.

Besides the structural issues, the F-16s made for the PW engine would have the ducts too “small’ for the GE engine’s increased volume of intake, and the GE engine would be starved at higher RPM. Hence the resized engine duct. If you fit the PW engine into the larger duct made for the GE engine, the air passage would have suffered a considerable loss of velocity, and the engine performance would suffer at lower RPM.

Because Su-30 is heavier very simple logic and is confirmed by Sukhoi Statemtent that i posted. they called Su-27 with modification worse than the original.

I am asking you how MUCH is that heavier, not that it is heavier. You understand English?

How is Starfighter contemprorary to Phantom. In 50s and 60s Aviation advance were in very rapid pace. Even a Single year makes a big difference. Ur looking at different times.

What an idiot. The Starfighter came into service in 1958, the Phantom in 1960. Don’t give me your freaking excuses about rapid pace. Like the Phantom, the Starfighter is a true Mach 2 fighter. It uses the same engine, and its wing is actually more advanced than the Phantom when it comes to efficiency at supersonic speed.

F-16 is clearly more expensive than F-15. and every export order confirm it. compare Polish F-16s to South Korean F-15K. and F-16 are three times more built. similar is F-35 to F-22. F-35 is clearly more expensive.

[

You have just shown your complete ignorance. You really are a fool are you?
Have you ever figured out why the USAF bought a lot more F-16s than F-15s? Because it is CHEAPER. The USAF wanted a fighter it can afford enough in the first place.

What is the contract price of the Polish F-16s, tell me. The ROK F-15s are 80 million. The UAE Block 60s were already 60 million, including contract support and the cost of an AESA radar.

Oh please claim in whatever lala land you are that the F-35 is more expensive the F-22.

F-18E is clearly cheaper than F-16C. Just look at 2007 price of F-18E. Fly away is $53M. which is way cheaper than $45M F-16I price of 1999.

You want to say that again? HUh? You apparently don’t know what is the difference of flyaway price and contract price. Put it among the long collection of your embarrasing idiocies that include modern warfare don’t use shrapnel and computing empty weight by MTOW.

The contract price of an F-18E is at least 80 to 100 million by now. Ask how much the Malaysians bought theirs. Sometime in 2003, the USAF asked LM how much the flyaway cost of a Block 52, and it turned out to be only 20 million.

And MIG-21 is so much smaller than F-16. and carry on third load of F-16. u cannoit say MIG-19 can lift more than MIG-21 to higher speeds. MIG-21 is much better built.

The MiG-21 is not that much smaller than an F-16. They are almost in the same length. The MiG-21 has a better structural design than the MiG-19 due to the delta wings. But it does not make the MiG-21 any simpler than the MiG-19. Part of the MiG-21 being a better design was that it was simpler.

so why u are blaming IAF crashes on fatigue. I clearly posted PAC Kamra. they have overhualed/Rebuilt 150 F-7 in 15 years. it means they had that much life.

Which is actually pretty good, given its usage. PAF pilots average well over a hundred hours a year. While the original spec of the MiG-21F was supposed to be 1500 hours, that is best case basis, and most don’t last in that region without an overhaul. In 10 years of usage, Su-27SKs and Su-30Ks are already in need of overhaul.

this directly contridicts longer life of Chinese F-7 vs MIG-21 built in older times. U should understand in India case agreements takes very long time to negotiat, sign and implement. so suppose if they started MIG-21 license production in late 70s for a particular variant. the technology most likely is of 60s.

Longer life oh boy. What don’t you understand? MiG-17 based airframes, no longer made since the mid sixties, are still in active service in the PLAAF today as trainers. Some J-7Bs, built before the eighties, are still in active service, and J-8As, which preceded the J-8II, are also in active service. These things now have at least 20 to 30 years in them.

and with all those improvements. F-7M is worse than 60s era MIG-21s.

That is quite BS really, given how many of the F-7M are still in service in relation to the time span of the MiG-21F, FL and PF.

I guess u dont read the implemenation of sign contracts. ARJ21 is practically a collection of Western sourced parts on DC-9/Ukranain design with Russian testing. and this thing is going to take 9 years.

You are the one who don’t understand a single thing. Antonov only provided verification and suggested modification of what is basically a Xian designed wing. Since the wing is supercritical, ACAC had an unusual approach—it had the wing design verified INDEPENDENTLY in four countries—representing Russia (using Antonov), the USA (using Boeing), Europe (Holland testing facility), and China. Each independently tested the wing using wind tunnels, and each center, independent of each other, suggested design modifications on the wing.

The only testing done in Russia was the wing, and the wing was also tested in the US, Holland and China. Everything else was tested in China. ARJ-21 sources Western parts, thats good, Western parts are much more thoroughly tested in the civilian field than Russian parts.

How is Su-30MK2 lighter than Su-27S when Su-27S has 20% more range, 25% more top speed, 10% more altitude and 320 kg less fuel?. u have to look at all parameters.

How can you have 25% more range when the Su-30MK2 holds more fuel? Lots of fantasy figures flying about.

Starfighter came much before than phanotom. similar is F-15. and F-16 is more expensive to buy than F-15 for the same year. Price shows the complexity. 1998 model F-16E is more expensive than 2006 model F-15SG despite higher number of ordered. F-18E is cheaper than F-16C block 52 even on export prices bases.

Excuse me? You must be in a fantasy world to say all these things. The Starfighter is almost a contemporary of the Phantom and in fact the Starfighter’s wing is more advanced. Both use the same engine.

When is the F-16 more expensive than the F-15? You are blowing this out of your anus again.

F-18E is not cheaper than the F-16C Block 52.

J-6 is heavier because it is older than MIG-21. it has nothing to do with design complexity. how close are the weights of MIG-23 and MIG-29.

Age has nothing to do with the weight. Why is the MiG-21 so much lighter than an F-16 then, huh?

It is again ur speculation. they trialed in 1987. so how can plane before 1988? and why wait five years for such simple delivery.

Read your own words again.

It also means alot of overhaul and down time. and it hapened in mid 90s. just look at crashes of F-7 on. http://www.warbirds.in untill 2003. figures after that are alot worse

Where are the crashes and which ones are due to fatigue.

he posted 1500 hr life. just look at his post. I dont think so he can assume about MIG-29 and Su-27 service lives.

Since the Chinese did get MiG-21F and technical information about it, they should know how long it will live. The F-7M already has many structural improvements since the first J-7. BTW, J-7Bs made in the seventies are still with the PLAAF today.

why u constantly embrass urself with baseless speculation.

Lol The Antonov wing is only one of the four candidates. It is not clear which wing design they actually used, since they are already building the plane.

this from Sukhoi. Same aerodyanamics like Su-27 but lighter than F-18. Su-35 is nothing more than Su-27 with lighter avionics. Similar is Su-27SM. which is considerably lighter than Su-30MK2. Speed, range shows the difference.

And tell me where Sukhoi has given you a ridiculous formula where you can compute empty weight from MTOW, huh?

so F-5E is more complex than F-16. Twin engine does not automatically makes a fighter complicated for simple designs. F-35 is far more complex than F-15.

No. The F-35 is actually intended to be much more maintenance friendly than the F-15. Certainly the F-16s are cheaper to maintain than the F-15s also.

It does not change that the J-6 is more complex than the MiG-21. As a matter of fact, the MiG-19s complexity and the problems that arise from that, is one of the reasons for its early demise.

they were still providing it untill 1993 and started in late 80s.

You really have no idea of the life stages of the J-7, do you? Between 1982 and 1988, this is when the F-7B and F-7M were being exported. The F-7Ps belong to these groups. CAC stopped production of the F-7/J-7 to make way for the J-7C/D, which was not successful. By 1991, the J-7E with the double delta wing is the model that is being produced.

how many times they are overhauled. just look at the number from previous page in such a short time.

The page says no such thing.

and current crashes are not more than any other type for the size of inventory and age.

And how many IAF MIG-21 which are much older , carries heavier weopons and more flight hrs are due to aircraft fatigue?

Where is your 2 or 3 crashes by the way?

One happened last March.

http://www.ibnlive.com/news/mig21-crashes-in-wb-pilot-missing/34902-3.html

They grounded the -bis specifically.

http://www.rediff.com/news/2002/may/03josy.htm

You can see the flight hours here.

so what knowledge he brought which is no known? He simply compared apples and oranges by saying Chinese were building longer life aircraft in 80s which is simply not true.

No. Pepe happens to be a Brazilian military attache. He must have been something to be allowed to visit the factory and shown this stuff. And what are you?

China usually hide the real things to show it is indigenous. like secrecy agreements. there is report in PAK-FA thread about wind tunneling Chinese aircraft from TASGI. this thing is already inferior to An-148 let alone SSJ.

That’s all you can come up with eh? As far as Chinese are concerned, they don’t trust Russian civil air techs which is the reason why they chose Western partnership.

ARJ-21 does not use Tsagi. It shares a lot of Western technology.

http://www.aerospace-technology.com/projects/arj21/

The ACAC consortium, formed in 2002, includes the Shanghai Aircraft Research Institute and the Xian Aircraft Design and Research Institute, and several aerospace companies: Chengdu Aircraft Industry Group, which is responsible for the construction of the nose; Shanghai Aircraft Company, which will carry out final assembly; Shenyang Aircraft Corporation, which is manufacturing the empennage (complete tail unit); and Xian Aircraft Company, which is responsible for manufacturing the aircraft wings and fuselage.

“Final assembly began in March 2007 and the first flight of the aircraft is scheduled for March 2008 with certification by the Civil Aviation Administration of China (CAAC) in 2009. A launch order has been received for 35 aircraft, for Shandong Airlines (ten), Shanghai Airlines (five) and Shenzhen Financial Leasing (20). In November 2006, Shanghai Electric Leasing (SE Leasing) signed a memorandum of understanding for 30 aircraft.”

The flight deck is fitted with five Rockwell Collins 10in x 8in high-resolution liquid crystal adaptive flight displays. Honeywell is supplying the fly-by-wire flight control system. The avionics suite is based on the Rockwell Collins Pro Line 21 system, including a VHF-4000 voice and data transceiver and an IRU-4000 digital data and audio processor. The system supports current VDL Mode 2 communications and also has the capability to support controlled pilot data link communications.

A Rockwell Collins FMS 4200 flight management system provides multiple wavepoint vertical navigation, flight time and fuel planning and prediction, Standard Instrument Departures and Standard Terminal Arrival Routes and approaches (SIDs and STARS).

A Kaiser Electroprecision throttle control module interfaces with the Collins autopilot, autothrottle and the engine’s FADEC. The avionics suite also includes a fully integrated Engine Indication and Crew Alerting System (EICAS).

“The ARJ21 has a powerful take-off and climbing performance to allow the use of basic airports with short runways.”The navigation systems include a Rockwell Collins solid-state weather radar, a Rockwell Collins AHS-3000 attitude heading reference system, a Traffic alert and Collision Avoidance System (TCAS) and an air data system.

The integrated cockpit panel assemblies and the cockpit lighting control are supplied by Eaton Corporation. Sagem is providing the flight deck control system which interfaces with the fly-by-wire system, including columns, pedals and central console.

CABIN
The 18.426m-long passenger cabin can be configured for 78 to 85 seats. The advanced broad cabin configuration includes wide seats, broad array pitch, a large space between the aisle seat and sidewall, wide aisles, high ceiling and low cabin noise.

The first-class seats are arranged four seats to a row, with a typical 38in pitch. The tourist-class seats are arranged five seats to a row, with a pitch of 32in.

CARGO HOLDS
The front and rear cargo holds have capacities of 12.416m³ and 4.383m³.

ENGINES
The aircraft is powered by two General Electric CF34-10A engines which are pod mounted at the rear of the fuselage forward of the swept T-tail. The engines are equipped with full authority digital engine control with a Meggitt Vibrometer SA engine control system and engine vibration monitors and Smiths thrust reversal actuators.

The relatively thick wing design accommodates large wing tanks of total capacity 12,720l, (10,386kg) of fuel. Parker Aerospace is supplying the fuel system.

The aircraft has a Kidde Aerospace fully integrated engine and auxiliary power unit fire protection system including cabin fire extinguishers and a bleed air leak detection system. The aircraft is fitted with a Hamilton Sunstrand APS 2300 auxiliary power unit and a back-up ram air turbine generator.

LANDING GEAR
“The ARJ21 regional jet is powered by two General Electric CF34-10A engines, which are pod mounted at the rear of the fuselage.”The aircraft is fitted with Liebherr Aerospace twin-wheeled tricycle-type landing gear, Goodrich tyres and brakes and a Parker Hannifin hydraulic system. The take-off and landing field lengths are 1,472m and 1,436m.

I think ur living in a past when things were easy to to copy.
Just look at for how many years Chinese President flying in 747 without Indigenizing it. So during war if GE/RR embargoed engines servicing to Chinese civillian industry. Situation will be worse than Iran. When Chinese whole economic/Scientific/trade is based on outside world it is simply illogical to assume China can indigenize everything. It tried to make unsuccessfull copies in auto industry. u simply cannot hide anything. There is agreement with Russian government of secrecy.
Ur simply incapable of making a regional airline. without Russian/Ukranian help. and that is even taking 9 years to finish. Too slow progress. Russian finished the first one and building a second RRJ with international certification of western export order already much ahead of China with much less government support.

Lol. China build a regional jetliner called the Y-10, and it indeed flew several flights but they could not make money out of it. Thus for a while it flew for officials only.

The main help for AJR-21 is not Russian or Ukrainian, but Western.

Facts remains the J-11B has its own planar radar and uses its own missiles. It now has its own engine, and its EW/RWR/MAWS are entirely local to boot. That is not speculation. That is fact.