I’m sorry to tell you but J-11Bs are not built from Sukhoi supplied kits. Whether they are still part of the contract or not is something of question.

I believe that any licensing contract does not include modifications without permission, and the J-11Bs are way beyond modification. They are practically a reengineering of the aircraft itself from top to bottom. Maybe Sukhoi is still a complicit partner to all these with a new secret contract, I don’t know. Business rules in both China and Russia are very hazy; there is a lot of backdealing going on, and you can have offsets to one deal on another deal that seems even so unrelated.

As for fantasy, the only fantasy is you because the evidence is CLEAR and EXPLICIT. China is not even trying to hide the planes like they did with the J-10.

If you look around there are stuff that explicitely looks Russian on the outside but internally are completely reengineered. Look at the Fregat look alikes or the Bandstand radar look alikes. The 125mm tank gun on the Chinese tanks. Look at the Orekh copies and the possible Shtil copies for the 054A frigates. Some of the business practices in the country are really funny too. If the quota for manufacturing is for 100 copies of Toy A, they make 110 copies and sell the ten through the backdoor in some street somewhere.

They are still building F-7s, or at least, has a production line still continously running for export customers. It appears to me that if they don’t have export order, the planes end up in the PLAAF as J-7G. Thus the quota remains the same. If there is an order, quota – export order = balance going to the PLAAF. I believe the quota is around 32 aircraft a year.

Other than the Bangladeshi order, which was highly visible, most F-7 orders are not very visible and I don’t think China declares them. I heard a few new J-7s going to North Korea of all places.

The Nigerian and Bangladeshi F-7MGs are probably equipped with a slotted array radar either from the NRIET (KLJ-6E) or 607 institute (SY-80).

For all its worth, an F-7MG is probably a lot nicer plane to fly than an F-8IIM.

Crobato you are saying a fallacy, from russian sources the Chinese have close to 280 Su-27/J-11/Su-30s As a result, the total number of aircraft in the Su-27/Su-30 family in PLAAF service reached approximately 280 aircraft, of which more than 60% (over 170 planes) were direct deliveries from Russia.

Russian sources only document their own stuff. They don’t document what the Chinese made of their own.

If you use the logic China has bought more Su-27s than built them, China clearly has respected the contract and has not produce any aircraft without license

China built more J-11s than the 105 kits they had. The 105 kits only make up to plane factory serial no. 0423.

It does not account for batch 05XX. Since J-11B is already starting at 052X, we don’t know where 050X and 051X went, but these are very likely to be experimental and evaluation models that lead up to the J-11B, some of whom may have been seeded with regular units for evaluation against original Su-27s and kit J-11s.

Given that WS-10A does appear wider than the AL-31F, the standard kit airframe would not fit them, and nor would the contract and warranty agreement support such a modification, starting it would void a very expensive warranty.

The J-11 that first flew the WS-10A would not have been a kit plane. It would have been built entirely outside of the kits. It is impossible to jump from a kit based Su-27SK to the J-11B without an interim model. The deep changes on the J-11B suggest that the Chinese cannot copy directly some of the Russian supplied airframe components whose metallurgical formulas may have remained proprietary. Russians also tend to use a lot more titanium because this is their natural resource advantage. The Chinese would have to substitute their own alloys and composite into the aircraft, which means deep structural changes and a design overhaul with every part being restressed and recalculated. The whole substitute airframe would have to go through a series of extensive tests and evaluation, and some of the early specimens may not perform as well as the original and requires adjustments and corrections.

But they have already stopped classic J-11 production as I told you by Shenyang announcement.

During the CCTV interview of the WS-10A designer, he showed the engine to the TV press already installed on a J-11 in a production line. In that shot, there were three to four other J-11s in that production line.

The fact remains is that China is going through with this project no matter what.

Crobato

The Russians know about the J-11B project and Boris Aleshin of course talked with the Chinese side and he said that he was optimistic about the deal to participate in the J-11B project becasue the Chinese side wants to build J-11s with local technology and even modified it to turn it into a very advanced design such as the MiG-29OVT or Su-35BM.

Optimistic does not necessarily mean it is happening. I always fnid Russian arms news to be optimistic, but did not happen in the end.

Even if Russians get to participate, the “Russians” may not be Sukhoi, but individual vendors like Salut and UOMZ, supplying the parts seperately with the Chinese integrating them together.

They know they have experimented with WS-10s and fitted them to J-11s but they were sure the Chinese still do not have the technology to build them in large numbers.

Well, they were wrong. And even then, it appears that Salut has its own plans seperate from Sukhoi. Salut selling AL-31FM1s to the J-11Bs would be no different for them as selling AL-31FNs to the J-10s.

The Su-33 enters also in that because of course for Russia these are the last chances for the Su-27 baseline to be sold becasue in reality the PAKFA soon will be needed in the International markes since the presence of the F-22 in Kadena has shown to everybody the news champion in the block in Asia is the F-22

The Su-33 rumors was hot last year, but appears to have faded for now. This potential buy is in serious trouble in my book. and should require some high level step in even if it means from Putin himself.

120??!

Wow, I had no idea the program had progressed so far.

Its 2007 already. The J-8F first came out in 2001 but it wasn’t revealed to the world as the J-8F. That happened only much later, and already a second regiment has been equipped. They have six years to build that 100 to 120, and that’s only roughly around 20-30 average a year for a relatively inexpensive plane.

So basically from what I understand the PLAAF and PLAN operate four variants of the J-8II…..the J-8B, J-8D, J-8F, and J-8H.

The D is an upgraded B model with a refuelling probe, while the F is a new-build variant based on the D but with various upgrades in weapons and electronics?

The J-8D also differs structurally from the J-8B. Likely to be all sorts of structural improvements at the expense of some weight. The new airframe was first seen with the F-8IIM actually.

It first featured an improvement of the Type 208 radar, but later used the Type 1471 slotted array.

The J-8F adds a second wing fence to the J-8D airframe. The first batches may have used the Type 1471 radar but later progressed to the Type 1492 radar. To make it simply, radar enhancements that would later include support for the PL-12 active radar guided missile.

The J-8F also appears to be compatible to the Sura helmet sight used on the Su-27.

The H is just a D model upgraded to F model standards?

Seems that way now. This is the most mysterious of the J-8II variants. First it was speculated that it was a specialzied ground attack model. Then it is a navalized varaint of the J-8F. Now it looks like a J-8D upgraded.

The J-8B is followed by what people generally called the J-8B block 2, though its not its real name really. This “2” version is an correction of the J-8B that adds the IFR, and generally fixed the radar and avionics sets with improvements.

The use of the engines is also unclear.

WP-13A
WP-13AII (probably starting with the J-8D and J-8B02)
WP-13B (starting with late J-8D and the J-8F)
WP-13BII
WP-14
WP-14II

There is also the J-8C or J-8III, which is an experimental version only. It has two MFDs in the cockpit and a slotted array radar, probably testing the Type 1471 that later went on to other versions.

JZ-8F is a newly discovered J-8F variant for reconnaissance.

Am I wrong on this or is my understanding of it all correct?

If you could help me clear up confusion on the J-8II’s hardpoints and weapons it would be great as well.

The standard variant is the J-8D so I’ll just use it as an example:

One Type 23-3 (or Type 23-III?) 23-mm cannon and 200 rounds. Seven hardpoints for up to 4,500-kg. of stores. Outboard underwing hardpoints are wet for carriage of a pair of 800-litre fuel tanks while the centerline can carry a larger 1,400-litre fuel tank.

IR-guided AAM’s can be carried on all six underwing hardpoints, and they include PL-5, PL-8, and maybe PL-7?

Radar-guided AAM’s include the PL-11, which is carried on the intermediate underwing hardpoints (i.e. middle underwing pylons) for a maximum of two.

Rocket pods can be carried on all six pylons on the wings, and comprise 18-round Type 57-2 (57-mm), 7-round Type 90-1 (90-mm), and 4-round Type 130-1 (130-mm) stores.

Unguided bombs are available in 150, 250, and 500-kg sizes, with up to one bomb of up to 250-kg on each of the six wing hardpoints plus up to six more of 150 or 250-kg size on the centerline. I’m not entirely sure where 500-kg bombs are fitted.

Okay………that’s what I know or what I have gathered about J-8D stores. Please review each comment and check my accuracy and let me know where I’m wrong. Once we’ve covered all of that I’ll go back and relay to you what I understand about the upgraded models and their weapons.

Thanks crobato, you’re a huge help. I’m kinda a fan of the J-8II so the more I learn about it, the better.

Pretty much correct.

The J-8F differs from the J-8D is that the former now adds the use of the PL-12 active missile. It can also dump Chinese clones of JSOW/JDAM called the LS-6 and FT-2.

The J-8D and J-8B_02 is avionically corrected to fire the PL-11 SARH missile. The original J-8B had its problems on that and is regarded as PL-8 firing only.

That is logic, because the J-11B can even be a modified Sukhoi delivered kit with chinese components.

Halting the delivery of kits and refusing signing the contract while you build your own indigenized Su-27s is a total violation of any license.

Its only a violation if there is something coded in the contract for such. Do you have the terms of the contract? Post if you will, word by word.

Sukhoi has had years to complain or bring it up to the Chinese authorities. They didn’t and if they did, they can only bring it up in secret. Sukhoi has never officially worded or has gone into formal opposition against what the Chinese were doing, even though the project is no secret since 2001. In 2002, the Chinese flew a J-11 with a WS-10A engine. In December of 2003, the PLAAF journals acknowledge the completion of a prototype.

I am asking you if you have an official Sukhoi response to this issue, since they have never said an official word on this, despite they already knew about this for years. A few years ago, I think it was Phazotron who said they knew that two of the Chinese radar firms are developing radars for the J-11, but the whole Russian stance is that the Chinese could not complete the intregration issues in ten years.

Meaning they knew about this eventuality, and they built a marketing plan to exploit that window of opportunity. Which means they themselves cannot stop that eventuality, just exploit before it.

What they didn’t expect is that it took the Chinese half of the time instead, so instead of coming out in 2011, it came out at the end of 2006.

No i meant China won`t try to screw Sukhoi, niether economically or technologically beyond what is more less in the agreement they signed, China can say we do not want more J-11s, yes it can but is not in the Russian interests to let the Chinese build their own J-11s with no Russian components or royalties.

How can China not renew a contract for the additional J-11s and instead build its own J-11s with no Russian conponents and not paying Royalties? can you get it?

What the Russian articles say is simply China wants to build its own indigenized J-11s and Russian wants to cooperate in one way or other, what Crobato is implying is China is trying to screw Sukhoi, building J-11s without paying royalties.

What is more logical is China and Russia are prepaing a second round of talks, all the 110 kits have been delivered and some assembled some have been indigenized or in few words upgraded and modified with chinese equipment.

China won`t risk a rift or either a military or economical confrontation because Russia always can take reprisals either economically or militarily.

China can stop recieving kits and stoping the contract and instead of use AL-31s as spare engines use WS-10s and upgrade their already built J-10s with chinese made radars that is more logic, than implying the Russians will be happy seeing how China screws Sukhoi.

What he says about Eurocopter letting China build helicopters without paying royalties is even more childish fantasy, Europe and England control the IMF and therefore have to much leverage economically to let China build unlicense helicopters

Its not a question of HOW or WHAT or WHY.

Its a question of ARE. ARE they doing it?

YES THEY ARE.

As for Eurocopter, they don’t have any say of the Z-9 being built in China, the numbers and how they are used, and why you have Z-9s being designed as an attack helicopter in the PLA, or an ASW or target spotter with the PLAN. Did the original contract include non military stipulations? By the way, Eurocopter is marketing their latest engines in China to access more of the Z-9 market.