crobatoThey are still offering the F-8IIM, but no more of the Zhuk radar. Instead, it has an export version of the Type 1471 aka KLJ-1 radar. Probably includes support for PL-9, PL-5E, PL-11 (FD-60) and PL-12 (SD-10). C-80X maybe an option. I don’t know and quite unlikely now, that there will be certified compatibility with the Russian missiles as the Zhuk equipped plane did.
Logistically, F-8IIM is more difficult to maintain than F-7, starting with a much greater appetite for fuel. F-7 is probably much more suited for operating out of small strips and fighting in the low altitude which is typical of third world engagements.
crobatoTasS is not wrong because what they said is true you just want to say they are wrong because theya re old they simply said these aircraft have still AL-31s only that
BS.
TASS is all wet for failure to understand and research PLAAF numbering system. In fact, they are looking remarkably stupid. You want to dispute the fact of the numbering system?
None of these planes were built after 2006, and some of these planes were even built by the Russians and imported to China in the mid nineties.
crobatoNevertheless at no moment China can defeat Russia niether militarily or economically, militarilly would be a disaster for both nations and economically in 2007 both nations are growing so Russia is not weak.
When the Russians say they want military cooperation is logic, China still wants Su-33s and won`t make it difficult to the Russians without paying what is due.-
And I don’t think Russia can defeat China militarily either at least conventionally.
Russia wants military cooperation and development partnership, but Russian General Staff only allows so much to China and China’s CMC have different requirements and plans.
With the development of local Chinese industry in missiles, munitions, avionics, and communications infrastructure (datalink and so on), all this infrastructure now means its very hard to fit a Russian product into this. This has nothing to do with specifications and technical abilities. This has to do with logistics—missiles, fuels, lubricants, datalink protocols, etc,. How will Su-35 fit into using China’s HN-900 datalink or Beidou system for example? How will Su-35 use PL-12, YJ-83 or KD-88 missiles, for example?
Sukhoi at this stage is better off offering blank Su-35 or Su-33 airframes with engines and FBW, then let the Chinese fit their own radars and avionics into it.
crobatoTASS is all wrong. In fact, all these planes are not new, and some are quite old.
The fire control radar of the type 1474 thus far undergoes tests on aircraft Y -8, whereas last series Su-27/ J -11 fighters with factory serial numbers 16039, 16131, 30107, 20057, and also with numbers 79 and 80 are still equipped with engines AL-31F.
These aircraft now are deployed on the air divisions 2, 1, of 19, 12 and 7 people’s liberation armies of China.
All 5 digit numbers are not factory serial numbers but are PLAAF unit numbers. 12345 is DRUDU, as in D for Divisional Number, R is for regimental number, and UU for unit number. This is the old PLAAF numbering system.
16039 and 16131 belong to the 6th Regiment of the 2nd Division. 1st and 4th Digits – 11 = Division Number of the PLAAF. So 13 – 11 = 2 or 2nd Division. 2nd Digit in this sense is the Regimental Number, which is 2. 3rd and 5th Digit are the unit numbers so 09 and 11 are bort numbers.
The 2nd Division planes are mostly imported Su-27SKs from the second order. These are not true licensed J-11s but KnAAPO manufactured jets.
30107 is the Unit number 17 for the 19th Division. This unit has a mix of true J-11s and true original Russian made Su-27SK. I think 17 is one of the Russian mades ones from the first batch imported and first assigned with the 3rd Division.
20057 is a true J-11. This belongs to the 14th Division, which only a few pics have bee released. They have some of the later J-11s, and the existance of this unit was known to the public as of Spring of 2005. Against 25 – 11 = 14. Old news.
Bort number 79 and 80 were J-11s that were added to the 33rd Division which recieved 28 Su-27UBKs. The UBKs were numbered 49 to 76, so 77, 78, 79, and 80 were J-11s. Since then a number of UBKs from this unit has been relocated to other J-11 regiments, and in return to fill up their space, more single seater J-11s were added as replacements. But this is old news, occuring sometime in 2003 when the last UBKs were received.
Of all these planes, only 30107 and 20057 are using the PLAAF new unit number system, the 16x3x numbers have been phased out and may now be 10x3x or 11x3x. No. 79 and 80 have long been renumbered into something else.
The unit numbers for the Su-27 J-11 groups should as the following:
1xx2x = 1st Division
1xx3x = 2nd Division
1xx7x = 6th Division
1xx8x = 7th Division
2xx5x = 14th Division
3xx0x = 19th Division
4xx4x = 33rd Division
xxx now represents their unit number in 3 digits.
This does not include the Su-30 groups.
Each Division has 3 regiments, and each regiment usually has 3 squadrons, with each squadron having two or 3 flights, ranging from a minimum of 20 aircraft to a maximum of 40, with 24 to 32 as the average including trainer and reserve aircraft. A division that has a J-11 regiment usually is accompanied by two other regiments with different planes. The 1st Division for example, has one regiment of J-11, one regiment of J-8F and one regiment of J-7E.
crobatoRead my post again. I said RUSSIAN Su-27s, not Chinese.
The mockups have to be supplied by Russia, part of the overall contract package. At least the original ones, later the Chinese may have made copies of them for their convenient use with the licensed J-11s.
A big percentage of the Russian Su-27 went mothball in the 90s, so I guess they really did not train as much. Lately however, there appears to be much thawing out in the fleet. Sorry i was not able to save the link, but I saw a number of Russian Su-27 pics in military.china.com that showed various RuAF Su-27s taxiing and taking off from a snowed airfield.
crobatoThey are building J-11Bs now. They are not building the J-11s and J-11As anymore. The J-11 is the one that is their coproduction. China sent stop order in May 2004, and the last kits were received in summer.
The 5th batch isn’t covered by the coproduction agreement. This batch should be the one with an all Chinese made airframe. Chances are they may lready started to build some of these planes as early as 2002 when they were making flying testbeds for the WS-10A, which first flew in June of that year. The batch 050X to 051X are most probably developmental and evaluation hybrids that uses a mix of Chinese and Russian systems, leading to the 052X series which is the true J-11B.
If you understand the batch structure for the airframe, the 1st batch has the most Russian content in terms of percentage, practically CKDs in my book (Complete Knocked Down Kits). The second batch reduces this by possibly another 25%, the 3rd batch reduces this further, and the 4th batch even more. So there is progressive reduction, with the 5th batch going 100% in terms of Chinese production in the airframe. (When I mean airframe I mean the plane’s structure and skin, not including internals like engines, electronics and avionics).
The J-11 license is intended to be like Harbin’s Z-9, which is licensed Dauphin helicopter. So long they don’t export the darn thing, they can build any number they want and modify it in anyway they choose.
crobatoYeah, did you check the Chinese thread lately?
Shows you a new regiment of J-8F. This time the planes are for the PLA Navy.
The planes have a slightly different radome design where there appears to be a notch on the rim.
Planes are shown carrying training missiles of the PL-8 and PL-12 sort.
One of the pictures have a factory serial “0403”. The first and second number usually means the production batch or block. This means it is the 4th batch of planes produced.
The first batch (01XX) apparently went to the 21st Division starting in 2001.
The second batch (02XX) apparently went to the 1st Division.
So if the 4th batch went to a PLANAF division (the pic unfortunately did not show the unit numbers), the 3rd batch has to be somewhere. Soone or later we hope some pics will come out.
My number estimates based on possible 4 regiments of planes is around at least a hundred to over 120.
This does not include the J-8H which apparently is now the J-8D upgraded to the J-8F standard. You can still physically distinguish the two planes as the upgrades don’t have the double wing fence wing as the true J-8F does. They do however, share the black radomes with the strips, and electronically, are the same planes.
Back on 2004, CCTV showed the J-8Ds of the 29th Division being upgraded. We do not know how many J-8Ds have been upgraded since then, though my list of suspects includes regiments of the 9th and 12th Divisions, as they now have the darker grey shaded black nosed J-8IIs. J-8Ds and all earlier J-8IIs have green radomes, and older planes wear the usual familiar white color.
crobatoWRONG. Your articles are still outdated.
Chinese articles indicate that in 2006, Shenyang built the last of their J-11As. The last kits were ordered in 2004.
The article is Shenyang factory announcement.
If you log on to the CDF, you can find the picture of the scanned article here.
http://www.china-defense.com/forum/uploads/post-403-1168998990.jpg
The pic shows you J-11 factory 0423 being assembled. The last J-11 to be built with a kit is 0423. (4th Batch, 23rd plane). That does not include any of the 05XX batch planes, which the 052X series begins with the true J-11B.
All the TASS article is to show you that the J-11s are equipped with the OLS-31E rather than OLS-27 as standard Su-27SKs do. It says zero as for the equipment of the J-11B.
J-11B went formal with AVIC and CFTC released videos, and is shown along with the CCTV interview of the WS-10A designer. You can check it out on the Chinese news thread here.
crobatoThey have already been paid, the USD $2.7 billion dollars contract covered 200 airframes.
For the Chinese it is not worthed to break a license in order to get in conflict with Russia in commercial matters, both Russia and China in order to continue having commercial relations and economic ones they will stick to the agreements they sign, wether it is the Russian debt or the Su-27 license.Civilized nations know the best way to continue commercial relations is respect agreements and the Chinese are not fool, they know they have to stick to the contract specially now they can build their own aircraft such as the J-10 without any need of sticking to a license as the Su-27`s case
In February 1996 Moscow and Beijing reached a $2.2 billion agreement for Chinese co-production of the Sukhoi Su-27. Under the initial agreement China would produce up to 200 aircraft [without the right to reexport the jets to third countries] from Russian-made components over three to five years. The total cost of the contract is $1.5 billion, including $650 million for technical documents and $850 million for parts, instruments and equipment provided by Komsomolsk-on-Amur Aviation Enterprise imeni Yuriy Gagarin [KnAAPO], which is to deliver around 30 percent of all completing parts for 200 Chinese SU-27SK jets. Russia has licensed coproduction of Su-27s to the Shenyang Aircraft Company, which can produce fifteen to twenty per year. In the period 1998-2000 Shenyang plans to assemble only 15 Su- 27SK fighters of the 200 permitted under the terms of the contract. The first two aircraft built at Shenyang flew at the end of 1998. Eventually China might seek to obtain as many as 300 Su-27s.
sourcehttp://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/china/aircraft/j-11.htm
check the word cooproduction
That’s not proof. That’s the same BS that has been disproven by actual actions. I demand that you show me something from Sukhoi itself.
Stormpages is the old Hui Tong site, and the information there is all outdated.
The defacto actions per se of the Chinese industry and the PLAAF clearly do not indicate there is a 200 limit on the total number of Flankers China can build. They developed the J-11B for the long run, and not just 80 planes, and there is clear indication they want to make a navalized J-11C/J-11H for the Varyag and future carriers—wanting to buy only two Su-33 sounds too obvious. In addition to that, there is also credible discussion of a two seater variant J-11S being under development.
That does not sound like another >80 planes (whats left after the 105 kits and the fifth batch J-11A/B prototypes).
Western media like Janes, AFM, AW, have stopped harping on the 200 plane quota long ago, as that only applies to the SK based line.
crobatoman the J-11 does not exist in terms of license. it is only a domestic designation the aircraft is for Sukhoi a Su-27 and as such pays royalties, you are just saying a fantasy, Sukhoi will demand the license and the royalties for each Su-27 built in China, does not matter if you call it Su-27 or J-11
Give me proof that Sukhoi had demanded royalties from China with regards to J-11B. They had every opportunity to do this since 2001 and everyday continue to roll past without any.
crobatoHi
Just curious…
West fighters jets usually flies with training AAMs. Why does the Russian Su-27 trains without carry missiles like the west fighters? Is it economical related problem?
Thanks in advance
Lol. There are tons of PLAAF Flanker pics out there carrying the striped training missiles, almost like every one of two pics of a Chinese Flanker in the air has a training missile.
crobatoAlso info from a local mag says the IFF is from Raytheon – TSB-2515 mk.XA. I don’t recall any new Russian jet fitted with american IFF gear before this.
Of course they must have some commonality with the AIFF with the Super Hornets Malaysia is getting.
crobatoPLANAF 5th Division JH-7A is already a definite confirmation since there is already a picture out with the planes carrying the appropriate unit numbers.
On top of that, we may have a J-8F conversion in one of the PLANAF regiments. If the production batches are regimental sized (24 to 32), the “0413” factory serial in one of the new J-8F indicates a 4th batch. Which can mean
1st batch = 21st Division
2nd batch = 1st Division
3rd batch = ???
4th batch = ? PLANAF
3rd batch might be a regiment in the 37th.
This does not include J-8D upgrades to J-8F standard like one regiment in the 29th Division.
J-11B possible first regiment is the J-11 regiment in the 1st Division.
crobatoIf Chavez wants to try and (attempt to) cause grief for an AEGIS cruiser, he’d be better off with the MK2’s supersonic Kh-31A then the subsonic YJ-83, in my opinion. Remember, the political angle was one of the driving factors behind this purchase.
If you want to cause grief to an AEGIS cruiser, you are better off with the Kh-31P (passive ARM) which is not going to alert any radar receiver at all, and has more range than the Kh-31A.
But then the JH-7A can equip with its own copy too, the YJ-91.
But of course, a Sukhoi with a big supersonic missile has a much more intimidating image, and that’s probably what Chavez wants. China also tends to be wary or skeptical of national leaders with provocative firebrand personalities.
crobatoTrue. There is only as far as you can take the basic architecture.
So far what I know the N001VE/VEP is only a stop gap. Never really intended to go this far.
China originally wanted Su-27SMK for its J-11. Based on 1996 specs, this plane uses Zhuk-27.
Failing that, China only gets a tweaked Su-27SK for J-11. KnAAPO offers Su-30MKK. China wanted Zhuk-MS (successor to Zhuk-27 with double width databus) on the Su-30MKK built after the 20th plane to be delivered sometime in the summer of 2001.
Didn’t happen.
Zhuk MSE is now pushed to the third order of Su-30MKK, now called MK2. Failing that, improved N001VEP is chosen for MK2, and Zhuk MSE is now deterred to a fourth batch of MKK now called MK3.
Somewhere along the way, China lost its patience and stopped further negotiations after first batch of Su-30MK2 is delivered. Original plans was for 3 orders of 24 each, one for North, East and South Sea fleets of the PLA Navy. Only one order was delivered. China moved on instead to JH-7A and J-11B moved up from backup, ironically both equipped with slotted array.
Sukhoi began talks to interest China on Su-27SKM upgrade with improved N001VEP on summer of 2003, but failed to make headway despite bringing in Su-27SM prototypes in at least two to three different occasions. China puts a stop order on Su-27SK kits on May of 2004.
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