Pentagon said J-10 is in the same Weight and Performance class as EF or Rafale. so it means its weight is 10 to 11 tons. Which directly contridicts what Crobato was speculating on this form about the weight. and with lower thrust , higher profile and smaller wing area i doubt it is fully in Rafale or EF class interms of performance. Read this it is on Page 4.

Sorry but you cannot pick and choose. If a plane is smaller than a Rafale, how could it be just as heavy? Didn’t the Pentagon reports also once compared the J-10 to the Hornet, then the Super Hornet? Should you take such metaphors seriously or just metaphorically?

http://www.defenselink.mil/pubs/pdfs/China%20Report%202006.pdf
and Starting from page 20 under foreign acquizition. every thing is put on outside technical assitance with few exception. even putting Space cooperation , technical design and materail support with russia. 1200 is not suprizing number considering F-6 example. and also putting F-11 as Su-27SMK.

Infact they made a definite statement that China has yet to make a a single sophisticated system from research, development and implementation without outside help. (Page 31, 2005) so question of Indigenous does not arise.
In 2005 report they put PL-12(Page 31) Seeker, rudder control actuation, system design, inertial navigation on Russian cooperation. and the same token putting Z-10 as Indigenous with entering in 2014.
http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Jul2005/d20050719china.pdf

The fact that the article call planes like F-11 and refers to the SMK, also shows a sense of cluelessness with regards to technical details, that suggests that the article is written by a bureaucrat who is merely gathering from different sources.

I’m sorry but if you know Pentagon reports, the Pentagon—at least the ones who are in the “know”—do not put everything they actually know on a report for public consumption lest they betray their own intelligence sources.

What is important is the gist of the report, observations on the strategy, trends and direction of the PLA, not on the myopic details which no one can get exactly right without extensive background checking.

Well, not everything can be PSed. In fact, 071 has already been launched today. Some guys took pics of these new ships:

Nice looking ship, but it would be nicer to get the same picture without someone trying to “trademark” the picture by putting letters across the image. I wonder if anyone has the picture of that 054A in the water now.

at that time things were very simple not complex u dont need to deviate that much from originall stuff.

That’s incorrect. You don’t know enough even of the technology in that era to say that.

ofcoure u are going to put improvments as u are going to use it for 40 years. First generation fighters were not designed for so long.

so what happened after Tu-4? did they continue with the same thing for next 50 years like J-6, J-7, H-6. I have no problem with one time learning. But to continue that for ever in almost every field like Chinese are doing shows some thing else.

Tu-4s lasted well into the fifties, and Russia did continue with many designs that proved durable and long lasting, among them the Tu-16 and the Tu-95.

Why should you change for the sake of changing? Even B-52s and Phantoms are still in use today because the design is good.

China continued to make J-6 because the improvements they put on the J-6 reached to a point that a J-7 or MiG-21 will not outperform it in any close combat fight. The plane had the advantage in terms of visibility, with swept wings, its borderline stability makes it very quick to initiate turns, it does not bleed energy into turns like the MiG-21 did, and the TWR is more favorable than its supposed successor. Which is one reason why China didn’t build the J-7 in large numbers, and in fact relatively so even today. Compared to the thousands of MiG-21s built else where, the J-7s only numbered in the hundreds.

And even then, China makes the J-7s because it is cheap, and its good plane to start pilots, especially when the J-6s are gone. They can learn their art there inexpensively before moving on to more powerful fighters like the Su-27. Like I said, why get rid of a good design for the sake of change.

China cancelled the H-6 after awhile, and then chose to revive it, mainly because it is a convenient platform to launch their long range stand off YJ-62 and KD-63 antiship and cruise missiles.

they have cooperative agreements for various cars and political decisions u should read more about that Motortrend has separate link for that.

So does China’s car industry. By the way, companies like Chery are already on the way in making their own designs.

I have very clear idea. thats i put separate history of PESA. and
that link for GaAs.

u better read about Mikron and Angstrem. and there is Pibu article on IDR Zhuk-MAE T/R and phazotron supplement.
not every GaAs MMIC is military grade. I doubt China/Taiwan can do it unless some one teach them.

Yes, yes, we know about that. A prototype but still phishing for development money. Companies like Phazotron and Tikhomirov cannot afford to fully develop an FCR, then make it pass through certification tests, which is very expensive to implement (for example in one test, try figuring out the cost of at least five to ten PGMs, that you would expect to launch live). The only way a bank would finance them, is they have to have a written and signed contract to submit as collateral, as well as the downpayment from the customer. No surprise why Irbis is phishing for Chinese development money.

Development cost is very expensive, and unless you can provide a viable model to finance such a project, it ain’t going to happen.

I would have no doubt that China and Taiwan can manufacture military grade IC and MMIC, since they have often done so before.

I don’t think Phazotron or anyone in Russia can manufacture MMICs. They have to be sourced from the outside. Not even Mikron makes one.

http://www.mikron.ru/eng/products/wafers/

Furthermore, the process is 0.18, which is dinosaur by today’s standards. China makes its Godwind processors on a .09 micron, and companies are moving to 0.065 now.

As for your Tarkeshent quip, you don’t need an assembly plant to install new engines. Show me again when Tarkshent actually manages to fulfill the Chinese contract, its either that or none at all. Please note that this is already the end of 2006, past the expected delivery date and not a single one has been delivered.

what has those multinationals R&D anything to do with Chinese state firms. West is quite open in utilizing intellectual capital and are not embrassed in admitting it. Japan was Industrial power before WWII. read Mitsubishi history.

Japan wasn’t a complete industrial power even then, and it was copying a lot of stuff—every aero engine they had in WWII is based on the Pratt and Whitney radial that came with the DC-3. West isn’t exactly open in utilizing IP either.

now what has American/Russian has anything in common with Chinese way of doing things. American/Russian study to find weak spots not to copy the entire thing.

And you don’t know that the Chinese way of doing things is exactly the same thing. Study the weak spots and fix it. For example, they placed more powerful engines with longer life, added more cannons, and increased the wingspan of their J-6s.

And what is the Russian way by the way? Don’t you know the history of the Tu-3 bombers? They copied the B-29s that crashed on Russia. Even though Russian engineers mentioned otherwise, the factories even had to duplicate the damaged patchwork and repair deliberately on the new planes as they appeared on the B-29s. That’s because Stalin ordered that the planes must be exact copies of the B-29 (so exact, even the battle damage had to be recreated exactly).

The Russians also copied the Nene turbojet, the BMW motorcycles, and even various FIATs into LADAs.

how it is not original in first place? they did everything independetly and without Capitalistic funds. It was NIIR that supplied all the PESA tech to NIIP in early 1971 and from there NIIP starts with PESA. so technology was there in 60s. and they were the pioneers in Gallenium arsenide. u have to look at Berkeley 5 nm process program using russian isotopes.
infact Mikron start supplying to Samsung right after soviet collapse.

Sorry but you have no idea about the difference between PESA and AESA, and the elements within.

Nope. u take it out of context. one is technolgy induced priced reduction and the other is simply inferior product.

That’s funny. Call me back when the Russians have fabs that makes GaAs TTLs and actually make an AESA without having to buy the TTLs from Taiwan or China.

Gee, I was trolling in the IAF thread responding to those who have been banned…tell you what Crobato, please dont make me laugh! All you can do is say troll, troll when somebody doesnt buy your hype about the PLAAF. Get a grip, and leave it to the admins to decide who is doing what. If I am “trolling”, I am sure SOC or whoever sees this thread can make up their mind for themselves, hmmm. If all I wanted to was to troll, I wouldnt even bother writing rejoinders or debating this, one-two liners would suffice.

I definitely think you’re trolling. Somehow the “hype” you think with the PLAAF you mention, galls your nationalism, since a “lover” cannot have a love triangle, and the Russians love you more.

Sweet dearest. As if people take pride in being “loved” more rather than to measure their own self sufficiency.

“Who I do I actually interacted with”? Errmm, Phaza reps, NIIP reps, Rusarm reps..quite a few actually..nice blokes all of them. Much more informative than the Israelis for instance.

The issue is of not living near some AF base in the west, its of even going to Zhuhai or the PLAAF bases and then talking to people in the know, or having first hand access from relatives, friends, the like..see, when you make such claims of being in “the know” regarding the PLAAF, its equally likely that you will be queried. Your seeing the Blue angels perform does not fall into that category.

Well sorry, but I don’t believe you personally. And meeting reps don’t exactly make for negotiating experience, not until you actually sat down on a table and start talking numbers and verifiable data.

So please do tell me, and be honest – have you ever met or interacted extensively with actual serving PLAAF personnel, PRC developers or been to trade shows like Zhuhai? Dont regale us with your business experience, kindly tell us about the above. If you havent, then try to understand the fact that despite all your analysis and personal interest, what you have is opinion.

No I don’t meet with anyone. As for opinion, you think you have a better opinion? Sorry but I don’t buy that “I have my second cousin’s uncle that works in the military” to have a justified opinion about the PLA. There are a lot of resources which anyone can research if they bothered to, including interviews, posts and direct experiences of the people mentioned. Opinions still count differently, depending how they can back it up.

You merely demonstrate how much you have to learn about the byzantine mess that is Russian arms selling. Rusarm or Rosoboronexport does not make policy. The Russian Govt does. At times, Rusarm has been cut out from several deals, depending upon whether the Russian MOD feels like it- in fact a year or so back, there were even proposals to whittle down the power concentrated even in Rusarm because of price gouging. But thats not the point- everything Rusarm comes up with, Almaz Antei come up with, NIIP thinks of selling- ultimately goes through the Russian Govt. There have been several deals which have bypassed them- but there have been recriminations thereafter and heads have rolled. Simply put, I dont think you will get anything that the Russian Govt does not want you to have. That holds true for any country out there.

Rusarms is owned by the Russian government, and for that matter, so does Sukhoi. All governments are byzantine, one hand sometimes do things the other does not know.

But sorry, if the Russian government doesn’t want you to have something, it won’t bother trying to officially market and propose it in the first place. I have yet to see a single Chinese arms contract the Russian government cancelled after it was signed in ink. In fact, it had been more than the other way around, when the Chinese threatened to put the Russians in default for failure to deliver on contracts, such as the recent IL-76 fiasco.

Rusarms dealing with Chinese goverment is a high level trade negotiation. The Chinese government does not negotiate directly with the factories themselves. As often it is the Russian government that assigns the contracts to the factories involved. For example, it was the Russian government that assigned which shipyards were to make the 956 EM Sovremannies.

But I can also tell you, that there is the sheer power of the customer. As they say it in the US, “The Customer is King”. The Chinese government had intervened in more than one occasion in these contract assignments, one being when Sukhoi and the Russian government assigned the second MKK contract to Irkut, which China threatened to cancel if it wasn’t transferred back to KnAAPO.

As often many deals take years to accomplish. You think for all this time, the Chinese government would not investigate, or merely ask the Russian government if this and that items are allowed? Or that the Russian government would send a list of things which can and which cannot be exported?

Like I said, you don’t know about doing business. If you have actually worked, negotiated, signed contracts, you would know that such things are easily avoided.

If Rusarms signed a contract with a country, only to have the Russian government turned it down, won’t that be embarrassing and most unprofessional in the part of Rusarms? Would that be pretty stupid since a simple phone call, fax or email sent to the appropriate Russian body, to verify if the item is in the export list or not?

Perhaps you should also study more about US technological products that are banned or permitted to China. Before you can have any embarrassing high level corporate gaffes about signing a contract and it turns out its on the banned list, perhaps you should have taken the effort to study that list or contact the appropriate body in the US government.

Oh big deal. The Indian Defence Minister and his flunkies, as well as the three service chiefs in the Defence Acquisition Council have negotiated deals- so what.

Which is besides the issue. Before you make anyone in a high level government position sign a contract, you better be sure you can back it up and won’t have embarrasing gaffes later.

I dont have anything to explain Crobato. I have said what I have said in as plain English as possible. I am aware of many attempts by Russian developers to market leading edge equipment to the PRC, many of those have not been cleared by the Russian Govt. It cant get more straightforward then that. Simply put, the PRC and Russia share borders, and old concerns die hard.

Nonsense. Borders don’t have anything to do with it. When it comes to geopolitics you are quite naive. The US also shares borders with Canada and Mexico, are they guarded in selling arms and technology both. China does not share a border with the US, but which country the US is more guarded into selling high technology items to—China, Canada or Mexico.

You are guarded into selling technology to someone not because you share a border, but because you percieve tha someone as being a threat to your technology, which is why the US is still guarded on things it sells to Japan. That implies that someone has a sizable technological level of their own.

There you go again- see Crobato, this is the problem with you- your inability to observe how loaded your own arguments are, and when somebody rebuts them, you get personal very fast. Your simple deductive logic is: If its not purchased by the PRC, its because PRC has an alternative which can replace it”. I would say there is a third option- that the PRC does not have access to it yet. I will change my opinion on this, the day the PLAAF gets Irbis..till then, sorry.

Bull. You are trying to force an argument which is moot in the first place.

The PLAAF has shown no indication they are interested in Irbis, present or future. That is the bottom line.

Oh please..the PLAAF fyi, were very interested in the Bars as well.

Nope, they never was, certainly not in the deployment stage. If they were interested it would be more like in the military intelligence level. Simply knowing more of that other thing, helps you counter it. The PLAAF is no more interested on Bars than they do with the APG-68 v8/9 or the APG-63 V2.

Like I said, you don’t know what is happening. The Chinese often “phish” for information by pretending to be interested in buying something, and so you send all sorts of information to satisfy this requests. This behavior has been commented by KANWA, Janes, and others.

Amusing. When you set terms its ok, because it must be true. Of course, if anyone points out an alternative, its that the PLAAF never wanted it anyway. Sour grapes?

Sour grapes, wow, man. talking about sour grapes. Especially when you consider how the PLAAF must be “hype” when it does not match your nationalistic colored opinion.

As a matter of fact, the PLAAF did not want many things because

Number one, regardless of hype in the brochures, the only thing that really counts is whether the system passes a strict series of certification tests. In 2001, BARS certainly didn’t meet many of these tests yet, and even in 2004, it wasn’t complete. Hence the RuAF choose the N001VEP as the basis for its upgrade. Testing is expensive by the way.

Number two, many things proposed are actually underdeveloped. In reality, the Russian arms companies are phishing for development money to actually finish those projects.

Number three, conversely, the more “advanced” an item sounds, proportionally, you can also bet it is the one that needed the most funds for development and the farthest from a testing stage.

There is a great disparity in what the Russians display and when they can actually deliver. For example, they displayed the Kh-59MK in 2001 Le Bourget Paris Air Show on the wings of the MKK 502 prototype. Said missile has not completed its development and tests until 2006.

Once these things are considered, the list of things you can actually deliver if the Chinese wanted in a time frame gets narrowed a lot. The 956EM was supposed to have been delivered before the 052C gets commissioned and which made the Russian ships obsolete right at the point of delivery. Hence China is very unlikely to order another surface warship from Russia again.

I cleared college a long time back- in fact, I daresay it is you whose behaviour is so typically collegial. Combative, hostile, abusive and vast amounts of that time wasted on the internet . And you wonder why I am skeptical? (Grin, if you can return those years to me or have a time machine, I’d gladly take it!!)

Honestly I doubted that you cleared college at all. looking at the arguments you posed, they’re so theoritical and it didn’t bother to you that in actual negotiation processes, such things can easily be avoided. Perhaps you don’t know what verification means do you?

Seriously, are you saying that Russian arms companies—business entities—are so unprofessional that they would _officially_ propose items to high level government entities without a simple procedure of checking whether that item has the green light in the first place?

No matter how byzantine a government is, believe me, you can get answers to that question pretty quick, especially with high level security items like weapons systems.

Are you supposing that the Russian governemt is so clueless to suppose that a body like Rusarms would officially propose a banned item to a country without its early approval? Lockheed Martin won’t be proposing new F-16s to Pakistan if the Bush government did not okay with it first (the legislature is another question.)

The problem with you is that you have not even interacted with the people whom you claim to mindread. Which is what makes it so amusing. In thread after thread people tell you something different from what you want to hear, but you respond with: “Aha, they were lying and you dont know !@#$% because you are a !@#$%%”. Amusing and droll- but hardly reality.

That’s crap. Interacted or no, it is about understanding the rules of the basic rules of trade. I’ve have interacted with politicians, does not tell me zilch about politics, though i did get a flattering perspective of Donald Rumsfeld.

From your posts here, you don’t know the basics.

Whatever- five years is the minimum that you can even take a raincheck on. Something tells me that you are not too keen on the PLAAF getting the Irbis now . 😉

No one is keen on it because China has not actually signed a real arms contract with Russia since 2003. All they have been doing is buying engines and spares. The Russians brought a huge assembly of arms into their exercise in 2005, and all they got for their trouble is a contract for IL-76 planes, which you can’t even consider being a warplane at all. And now, even that contract the Russians can’t even deliver at the said price.

The mood among the Chinese is simply, not interested to finance Russian R/D.

Sure, sure.

Sorry, you are very badly mistaken. The PRC is still far away from the Russian aerospace industry in airborne FCRs. And please dont bring up the repetitive KJ-2000 and KLJ-XXX binge. Been there, heard that.

You are the one badly mistaken. The PLAAF has not bought a single Russian FCR ever to be deployed in active service __ever__ except on a captive market like the Su-27s. Even the PLAN MPA orignally got radars from GEC Marconi and Litton. Every serious Russian proposal for an FCR has been cancelled one after another, which Chinese FCRs taking place in every platform.

I don’t even see any distinct proof that the Russian aerospace industry is ahead in airborn FCRs. And you’re going to hear the KJ-2000s and KJ-200s again because the Russians still don’t have an actual ESA AEW system on an A-50 that is in a _vigorous_ testing stage.

Still doesnt change the fact that a full specced Irbis would be a massive boost to the PLAAF.

How? A radar without the proper armament is completely useless. Your comment is for that matter, quite unprofessional from a military point of view. A truly professional military POV in these matters, puts logistiics and weapons compatibility above toys and gimmicks. It is better to have something that is less technologically advanced but one that has been reliably tested under the most vigorous conditions and is currently compatible with your weapons logistics, than something more advanced but is usefulness does not go pass from being a toy and a white elephant.

5 years to develop, 3 years needed to integrate weapons, support for Chinese weapons a zero, time needed for testing unknown—suffice to say this smells like a Russian effort to phish the Chinese for development money on IRBIS.

Oh please. The actual trolls were banned, and I and several other members merely responded to their flames. You have been warned as well in the past , so get off your high horse. Furthermore, your current behaviour is sprinkled with obscenities as visible in the “exchange” with star49. The problem with you is that you are unable to debate without resorting to invective from the word, go. Maturity, hmmm?

When did I ever was warned by the way?

You responded to the flames? You were trolling like what you were doing in this thread.

Oh please dont make me grin- If you wish to spend the your time raving and ranting on an online forum, mores the power to you and your descriptions of reality in the business world. Coming to the topic under question, It wouldnt even matter, but for your hyperbole from the word go. Disagree with Crobato- and it is: “do you know about business”? Oh please. I have interacted extensively with Russian and many other arms developers & to see you (whether you have even met anyone from the PLAAF in the flesh, visited a single airbase, or even been invited to Zhuhai or the like- is very doubtful) keep hyperventilating about “business” (a skill which apparently only you possess!) is nothing but high farce.

You interacted with Russian developers? Who do you actually interacted with? If you really do, you won’t be taking the time to be trolling here. As for visiting an airforce base, by the way, I happen to live near one and visiting it is just an arm’s throwaway.

My original point was that the Russian Govt monitors all exports consistently, and that the Irbis is unlikely to be released to the PRC, despite whatever NIIP wishes. This is based upon my interaction with Russian arms developers and others, including what other nations have observed vis a vis their experiences. You are welcome to disagree if you wish- but thats your personal opinion vs mine.

And Rossoboronexport isn’t a Russian government organization?

This is where I really doubt about your claims of meeting Russian developers. Rossoboronexport is the FACE representative of the Russian arms trade to China. Everything goes through them, including proposals. It is this organization—a Russian government organization—that presents these proposals to China.

Let us add to the fact that the Chinese defense minister happens to lead the negotiations himself, and you don’t deal with someone that high in the Chinese government unless you are someone in the Russian government itself.

A bunch of strung together stuff from Kanwa, AWST, other webpages, and some Chinese photos, and even what PiBu writes and then you claim to contradict him. Fine, no problem. Even so, the issue was not with your right to disagree, (and it never has been)- it has a lot to do with your inability to hold a polite conversation.

On the N001VEP issue, I have a right to disagree as such comments do not mesh with the factory information released by KnAAPO. Simply said, I don’t think anyone now would contradict that V stands for the SUV-V, P stands for the SUV-P subsystem, and not because of the modifications on the radar. As a matter of fact, the Kh-31A functionality, according to the KnAAPO document, is attached not to the SUV-P subsystem which handles TV guided weapons, but to the SUV-V which handles radar guidance functions.

Up to now, I have never seen you present a credible argument otherwise. You keep laying this issue on Pibu, and I have repeatedly ask you, or Pibu or Overscan to verify the basis of the designation.

Furthermore, I believe it was some of your BR posters that suddenly concluded that because of this, the MKK does not have an air to ground functionality, when in fact, Pibu, Overscan and even Garry said that the air to ground functionality is not connected to the radar, which is correct—the SUV-P ground attack subsystem runs on a TV channel and is EO based.

And now you disagree with Pibu?

I disagree with him and I will repeat that, that the P designation in the N001VEP meant air to surface functions in the radar system itself,when in fact, it refers to the SUV-P subsystem, that hosted TV air to ground weapons and adds no functionality to the radar at all. The basis for the modification was on the SUV-V subsystem in the first place.

Now since you claim you have access to all the Russian developers, why don’t you ask them yourself?

And please don’t give my your expert opinion about the Irbis. It does not mean that I disgree with him on a technical detail of labeling, that I disagree with him on his news report about the Su-33s and the Irbis offering.

Frankly I think you have a lot more to explain since I believe at least Pibu is at lot better connected with Russian arms developers than you will ever be.

Right, so if the Irbis never appears in PRC Colors, its because the PRC chose not to buy it.

Yup. Why should China buy everything the Russians offered?

Seems to me you are not arguing any business sense at all, and yet you want to challenge me about business?

To have business is to have something you would actually want to buy. There is no indication that China is actually interested on Irbis. The Russians were the ones that were making the initiative here.

Tell you what Crobato, we arent going to see eye to eye on this.

Irrespective of your reasons, or whatever debate here, or cursing or whatever, the proof of the pudding is in whether the PRC fields Irbis. Take a raincheck, come back after five years and then lets see.

Bull. You are trying to set the terms for proof which is in fact wrong. China has no reason to buy Irbis, just as they cancelled or did not go through the Zhuk, Sokol and Pero proposals.

One important aspect that you really don’t know much about the real world is that people will tell you what you need to hear. If you really really ever in business, and your statements and behavior tell me you’re not even past the college age, you can never take people’s word in face value. People will say what you needed to hear, and not necessarily the truth. Second, you really have no idea what the sheer power of money can do. From your behavior, and your willingness to take people’s word on face value, you really never have been on a negotiation table or deal with corporate blue shirts.

Christ, in five years for Irbis? And that’s probably the minimum. If you think China will take that long to wait for Irbis, and then expect them to pay for the overpricing, you are mistaken.

Why would they buy it? In five years, China could come up with something better for lower the cost and one that is compatible with their own arms.

The Chinese can plough superior resources into radar development. Money wise, talent wise, and not the least, they have the manufacturing infrastructure to actually make the ICs right in their homeland. These also include MMICs which are fundamental to the TTL elements used in AESA. They also have the ability to refine quantities of Gallenium Arsenide, that is essential in making such elements. All this because of a booming domestic telecommuncations industry.

The fundamental flaw in any Russian radar system being offered to China is that China now has a boisterous missile industry of its own. None of the Russian radars are directly compatible or integrated with the likes of the PL-12, the latest PL-8 blocks, the YJ-83 ASMs, the KD-88 standoff missiles, and now even the LT-2 LGB, the LS-6 and FT-1 JDAM style bombs. And I don’t think the Chinese are willing to share the software interfaces and command protocols of these weapons to the Russians which is fundamental to integrating them. Because of this, China’s will now and always put a domestic radar system of its own in most of its planes, the proposed Su-33s excepted. But then the Chinese intention on the Su-33s was merely to study it so they can make their own navalized J-11s.

Sonnyboy, I have met many sellers and seen how the business works. On the other hand, I doubt whether you have even met anyone from the “business” in the flesh, whether chinese, western or russian. Big talk on the internet doesnt impress me Crobato, nor does your juvenile nationalism which leads you to start spewing insults from the word go.

I dont need to correct him. I can disagree without acting the boor, which is something you havent learnt yet. Age and maturity, hmmm?

Coming from a dude who apparently has no day job, and spends all his time engaging in stupid d!ck measuring contests on this forum, its hilarious.

Grow up Crobato. Please.

Talk about your nationalism. Perhaps you need to check your mirror before you point the finger to other people.

You talk about business practices, what do you know? You are just in a major denial about the whole Irbis thing being offered to the Chinese. Suddenly contrary to myth, Irbis is not some Sino-indo partnership nor it is an Indian exclusive. Funny that you want to refer to Pibu about the N001VEP issue and don’t want to refer to him about the Irbis issue I love your double standards. He just wrote an article about the potentiality that China might buy as much as 100 Su-33s and which includes an Irbis option later on.

come back when Areva and westinghouse built some thing on that scale and sophistication inside china. untill that point. Russians are the most advanced ones.

Bull****. Areva and Westinghouse already built reactors more advanced than the Russians, not to mention being more safe and has more safeguards in preventing use of depleted material for other uses. Not to mention China is also deeply researching into pebble bed reactors.

Ask yourself now who has the largest and most powerful Tokamac reactor in the world for nuclear fusion research?

u claimed sukhoi has confirmed. where is sukhoi confirmation?

I don’t need to prove COMMON KNOWLEDGE to you.

Didnot the first A-50I went from Beriev in 1999 to Israel from Russia? Israel made agreement in 1996 with China. why there was 3 years gap?

No. The plane was from China then sent to Israel and back to China. Beriev’s own modifications for A-50 are not the same as the A-50I’s.

what they fix? they have absolutely nothing to do with intellectual property of BARS.

Oh they do. In addition to changes, India also supplied component processors to improve signal processing.

did sweden sign secret agreements with other countries to hide military technical cooperation.

Nonsense. As a democratic country, such agreements are subject to public accountability. Arms agreements with other countries are all subject to scrutiny, transparency as decreed by arms treaty.

what upgrade u are referring to in 1999 period for block 50/52. they still carry the old early 90s radar. i can certainly dig out but i want to see how far ur illogic goes.

You are really ignorant are you? The upgrades include modular mission computers that were first featured with the F-16MLU and Block 20. There were also changes in the avionics, for example, adding color CRTs.

US has made completely sure that nothing goes from Phalcon to China. even in the last flight outside Israel there were Israel team inside it. India has complete faith in this system.

Wrong. While you cannot transport components, you can however, transport knowledge.

Suffice to say by the time the deal expired, China would have gathered enough information.

how can u see secret military-technical cooperation agreements. US does not need Japanese money as much as russian needed Chinese money in the 90s upto early 21st century.

More nonsense from you. US and Japan needed to ease up their massive trade imbalance with Japan buying from the US. As far as secret miltiary technical agreements go, the F-2 project is quite transparent and you can find GOA reports on it.

the same is true just for any other license. u gradually increase domestic content.

thats to ensure uniform taste of food.

there are alot of clones of Coke produced in the world with similar tastes.

Bull. You don’t know business do you? McDonald’s has a secret recipe with its lard, just as Coke has a secret recipe with its concentrate. Lots of Coke clones but none is able to replicate the exact taste. The formula alone is worth billions and a recent case of corporate espionage, a Coke employee tried to sell the formula to Pepsi, who instead, called the FBI in.

Publci knowledge? based on what?

It is public knowledge, as Sukhoi and Rossoboronexport declared the export as per export procedure and arms treaty regulation. You keep forgeting that arms transfers have to be formally declared to the UN.

this thing is so easy to prove. u have to just search this form. u will get the answer;)

Why don’ you search huh? What, cat got your tongue?

I said Chinese scientist in western countries. meaning working in western countries. I didnot mean that he has to grow up and study in West.

Science is international cooperation. Maybe you need to understand that. As a matter of fact some of these scientists were educated and grew up in China. I only see this as your poor attempt to conceal your obvious racism.