You are also welcome to join in. We are BBQing a Pig, want a bite ?

Ha ha, no thanks, but you guys go ahead, knock yourselves out, have fun 😀

Be careful you don’t catch swine flu

Pakistan is still a developing UAV manufacturer, articles in Pak press apart. It lacks systems with the capability of the Israeli drones, India has operationalized in a large number, eg check the Heron for instance.
The Pakistani forces have begun taking delivery of the Luna/Falco if my memory is right – those are rough equivalents of the Searcher series. But nothing to match the heavier systems the Indians have, or even their Sat capability.

Are you referring to the israeli drone that the PAF shot down?

The MAR-1 is a new design with a 25 km range – compare it to the Kh-31 and its issues become apparent.

By the time the MAR-1 is standardized in PAF service, the Indians will have a SAM that outranges it, in the Barak series SAM.

I would rather Pakistan had been more prudent and tried for the HARM.

Details of the MAR-1 are quite difficult to obtain, the Brazialans themselves never even acknowledged the existence of the missile until relatively recently. Although it is speculated to have a 25km range, its size and configuration appears similar to the AGM-88 HARM, which has a 100km range.

Indians have SPJs in numbers, including their own design & Elta 8222’s and French jamming pods.

Now what systems does PAF deploy? Lets have the breakdown please. Less rhetoric and more facts.

The PAF are known to use the AN/ALQ-131/ AN/ALQ-184 Pod, some of the F-16s taking part in Anatolian Eagle were using this.

Ah, so it isnt an issue but the PAF is buying them. Very sensible.
IFR gives InAF Jags and MiGs the persistence to take off with heavy loads and interdict Pak lines of supply whilst attacking from vectors deep in India. I should think this should be obvious to any interested observer!

Yes it will be the iaf which needs to cover the most groundm hence the requiremnt for IFR. The PAF will mostly be operating within Pakistani air space, so not as important.

You are the one thumping your chest, lad! I am just shining the light!
I just pointed out the PAF does not have the resources to challenge superior numbers and superior technology, both!
No matter how you dice it, it just doesnt work!

Everyone knows the technological and numerical advantages the iaf enjoys, I’m not denying that, and it is iaf forum fanboys like you who keep chest thumping and rattling off the usual list of iaf assets. Whether the iaf can translate that into a clear decisive victory over the PAF is yet to be seen.

Somehow these particular pictures and claims are only available to you!
As I said – please show us these pics – I would welcome them.

No I don’t have the pictures, but as was widely reported in the media;

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan—Adm. Mike Mullen asked Pakistan for a guarantee that Pakistan Air Force will not respond to Indian surgical strikes. General Kayani is said to have responded with showing Mullen a photograph of an IAF Mirage-2000 locked by Pakistan Air Forces’ F-16 taken on December 13. ‘Next time, we’ll bring it down’, Mullen was told. To make sure the message was loud and clear, Pakistan Air Force jets started patrolling the skies in hot mode and a red-alert was issued throughout the country. The Indian war rhetoric has failed to impress Pakistan. Instead, the focus is now shifting to Indian intelligence agencies’ failure to put together credible evidence implicating Pakistan in the Mumbai attacks.

Perhaps you could write to Kiyani and he’ll send you a signed copy of the pics…

Gentlemen – so called secret reports are leaked dime a dozen throughout the world. Indeed, many of the worlds topmost news agencies survive on leaks – who can forget NYTimes and their continuous leaks about the WOT for instance.

Are you referring to the secret indian naval plans that were “leaked” to the ISI? 😉

– Better recce assets – namely a huge lead in UAVs.

Can you define this? There are at least hald a dozen companies in Pakistan which manufacture UAVs which are exported to other countries.

– More EW assets

which will be rich pickings for ARMs, given the close proximity of the theatre of operations.

– Better Airframes

Again very vague, are you referring to the 500 aircraft the iaf has lost through attrition over the past years? The mi-21 flying coffins perhaps?

– Better weaponry (ie tools at disposal), from ARMs to Precision strike systems like the Popeye

The PAF has similar PGMs, including ARMs, sich as the MAR-1

http://www.janes.com/articles/Janes-Air-Launched-Weapons/MAR-1-Anti-Radiation-Missile-Brazil.html

Which no-one really knew about until the Brazilian authorities released detials of the sale.

– Better defensive aids and force multipliers, eg EW suites

Sigh…define “better”.

– Long range persistence via IFR

As stated previously, given the close theatre of operations, rich target environment, IFR isnt too much of an issue for the PAF, however, this will be inducted soon.

You EW grid will be jammed, will be subject to constant SEAD attempts! And to try and take out the shooters, you have to run the gauntlet of better armed escorts!

And vise versa, your point being? apart of the usual chest thumping?

Would be very interested in seeing a reference about any lockons on either side.
But that apart, the only news I have is the PAF side stating an alleged incursion by a fully loaded Su into Pak airspace.

The US special envoy to the region was shown gun camera pictures of iaf fighters which intruded into PAF airspace, he was warned “these will come down next time”…as widely reported in the media…or is this 1 particular report you would like to question the validity of? 😉

You missed the entire point, or is it that you dont wish to address it?

If you now claim that all the PAF has is the obsolete Block-15, then it only reiterates the original article that the PAF is severely outmatched in terms of capability viz. its regional rival?

Which is what would be interesting – namely – how is the PAF going to deny airspace superiority to the InAF?

What are the assets that it could even utilize to even achieve something of this sort?

To a neutral observer, its really quite lopsided & I would appreciate any decent information from your end, if you are serious about the debate, that is.

The article lacks credibility and accuracy, no to mention how the authour was able to see this mythical secret report submitted by the PAF chief. If you still believe in the original article and the authours claims, then fine.

The biggest disparity between the PAF and IAF is the lack of an obvious BVR capability for the PAF. While some if not most of the mirages are BVR capable, the PAF have never really released any details as to which BVR missile they could employ. My guess would be a derivative of a South African missile, given the close association with other air-launched weapons. However, in general, the PAF have kept most people guessing, which is a better weapon than any perhaps. If the claims by indian fanboys here regarding the indian “inteligence” is anything to be believed, then perhaps the indians should know more about the BVR capabilities of the PAF than anyone..lol

To deny iaf the use of Pakistani airspace, the PAF would primarily rely on its extensive ground network of radar and early warning stations and engage the iaf within visual range, on PAF’s terms, a tactic eluded to by the former ACM in previous AFM interviews. The PAF have also been working on anti-BVR combat training, although what this actually means is anyones guess. No one is saying the PAF will have any easy time agianst the iaf, but given previous experiences, the iaf won’t be able to dominate either. The apparent “accidental” incursion of a batch of iaf fighters at multiple points along the border in the aftermath of the bombay attacks, with an immediate reponse by the PAF and reported lockons by PAF fighters, only goes to show the type response which could be expected by the PAF.

If the iaf were so confident about their potential, why haven’t they carried out their “surgical” strikes against Pakistan? Assuming they ever get that far that is…

Babur test was not “secretive”. I distinctly remember an Indian member on PakDef forums, Arjun Mk.2 who posted a news report on Pak’s new cruise missile, 1 month before the Babur was first tested in August 2005.

If someone can search Pakdef’s archive’s dating to June-July 2005, Arjun’s post may be found (unless the moderators have deleted it).

Now, India’s test of ABM shield indeed was very secretive and took not only Pakistan, but even China by surprise. China has access to technology of S-300 and Patriot missiles (via Israel), but has been unsuccessful so far in deploying a credible ABM.

Reference :-

http://www.nti.org/db/china/imisr.htm

There were rumours that Pakistan was developing a cruise missile, so this was nothing new, many people were discussing this possibility…and many people dismissing this because they thought it would not be possible.

I don’t believe the indians knew, if they were that good at their “intelligence”, why didn’t they pick up on Kargil or the bombay attacks.

And please, the thought of the indian navy chief becoming a bollywood star and “pretending” to wet his pants after the Babur test is plain pathetic, even by indian fanboy standards on this forum.

Adil,have u heard of SAMYUKTA?think u have’nt,that will fry your Intel and other buzzing equipments during wartime.

The Samyukta system, while providing local battlefield elctronic intelligence and EW, has limited range to be effective against long range AWACS radars and will be completely ineffective against UAVs. I would hardly go as far as to say “frying buzzing” equipment.

First you are confusing 2 different things. India knowing about babur or raad doesnt mean they knew when the agreement was signed or pakistan even started the process of acquring cruise missile when the agreement was signed.

The whole purpose of this agreement is to let each other know beforehand about the tests so that the other doesnt take it as a missile attack specially related to ballistic missile as they will be the primary carrier of nuclear weapon in the subcontinent and not cruise missile.

Dont believe everything you read in media. Ask yourself this simple question why didnt India agree to sign later after Babur test. Ballistic missile is a different issue because of nuclear concern from both sides. it has nothing to do with Pakistan capability regarding cruise missile. Pakistan and India have eventually acquired everything they wanted and Indian leadership is not stupid to believe that pakistan will not acquire it specially the progress china and some east european countries have made regarding cruise missile.

I don’t believe everything I read in the media, just take a look at the laughable news link provided above.

If it really was that easy for Pakistan to get hold of components to build a cruise missile, according to you, then why didn’t the indians do this years before the Pakistanis? Why did they feel a need to collaborate with the Russians on adapting an anti-ship missile for land attack?