Well, price is not everything and the US can offer things Russia can clearly not…………
that LPD the USN sold to India left a very bad impression, or so I heard
The VVS replaces the “old” Red-Star” with a new three-coloured one …
I think this is it …. (via “ucon” from the Secret-Projects-Forum !!)
Deino
Any info if it is one of these??? :
Never say never 😮
Never!:diablo:
Clearly, India coud handle a US Style Super Carrier. It has more to do with wanting than anything else………
As explained by a coleague above, the US will NEVER sell a decomissioned carrier to anyone
Carriers delay ‘good for yards’
The carriers were scheduled to enter service in 2014 and 2016
A delay to the start of a £4bn project to build two new Royal Navy aircraft carriers would be good news for Scots shipyards, according to a Labour MP.
The Defence Secretary is due to issue a ministerial statement, amid speculation that their entry into service could be delayed as the MoD tries to cut costs.
Ian Davidson, who represents Glasgow South West, said if the order was spun out, the yards would be in work longer.
Union officials said it was vital there was no delay in the work’s start date.
Work on the aircraft carriers – HMS Queen Elizabeth and HMS Prince of Wales – had been due to begin next spring.
They were scheduled to enter service in 2014 and 2016 but reports suggest Defence Secretary John Hutton could delay this by two years.
The announcement will affect shipyards in Appledore, in north Devon, Portsmouth, Barrow-in-Furness, Glasgow and Rosyth.
Contracts worth about £3.2bn were signed in July and the work was expected to create or underpin a total of 10,000 jobs at the yards.
By the end of the afternoon I would expect Jamie Webster and the other shop stewards to be holding hands and skipping together down Govan Road
But Mr Hutton told MPs this week there would be a new announcement on defence spending.
Mr Davidson said he had been reassured by discussions with the defence secretary.
“The good news is that the biggest naval order since the Second World War will remain in place,” he said.
“The better news in my view is that the order is going to be spun out, which means that the yards will be in work longer.
“What’s likely to happen is that there will be less sub-contract work and more done in-house.”
He said he had been critical of the programme previously put forward, because all the UK shipbuilding facilities “were likely to be full and it was probable that some work would have to go abroad”.
‘Sack people’
“Now, if we spin this out, a lot of work will be done in sequence rather than simultaneously – which means that more work will be done in the UK and in Scottish yards,” he said.
“There is no suggestion that the companies that will build the carriers will have to sack people and then take them back on again.
“Measures will be put into place which means the work will be maintained in the yards and workers will have an assurance that their jobs will be secure.”
Jamie Webster, the GMB union convenor at the Govan shipyard, said: “If the programme is being stretched over a longer period of time because of budget reasons, I wouldn’t be surprised at that, and it would not pose a problem.
“But it’s important that there’s not a delay in the starting date – if there was, that delay would have to be minimal.
“If we’re not starting the ship at the same time as we should, which is next March, that’s something that we’ll have to look very carefully at with the company, bearing in mind that the steel’s already being delivered to Govan and that it fits in with their current programme.”
‘Greatly diminished’
He added: “If the announcement says that the work will be stretched out I don’t see it hindering us, we’ll just re-adjust our programme.
“It might prevent some recruitment which we intended in the future.”
Mr Davidson insisted there was a greater degree of job security for Scottish shipyard workers than for staff in any other industry in the UK.
“If the carriers are spun out, that the gap between the end of this order and the next order is likely to be greatly diminished,” he said.
“That makes it much more likely that we’re going to be able to offer continuity of work well into 2020 and beyond.
“How many people in Britain today can have a guarantee of work beyond 2020?”
“By the end of the afternoon I would expect Jamie Webster and the other shop stewards to be holding hands and skipping together down Govan Road.”
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/glasgow_and_west/7777065.stm
worth to take a look…
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1333316&postcount=218
[SIZE=”6″]Norway’s JSF Price Tag is $3.2 Billion and Rising [/size]
(Source: defense-aerospace.com; published Dec. 6, 2008)
By Giovanni de Briganti
PARIS — Norway did not obtain a firm price from Lockheed Martin for the Joint Strike Fighter, and the price it was quoted will change substantially before the contract is signed in 2014, Norwegian government and industry officials say.
Price information provided by these officials paints a quite different picture from that provided by initial media reports, and illustrates many apparent inconsistencies.
For example, the $2.57 billion figure widely quoted as the cost of the 48 aircraft is wrong because it is based on the wrong exchange rate. Maj. Jarle Ramskjaer, head of information for the Norway’s Project Future Combat Aircraft Capability office, told defense-aerospace.com Dec. 2 that Lockheed Martin’s price is based on a January 2008 exchange rate.
Using this rate (5.5 Norwegian kroner to the dollar), the JSF’s 18 billion kroner cost works out to $3.27 billion, or $68.12 million per aircraft, substantially higher than the $54 million (wrongly based on Nov. 2008 exchange rates) unit price that was widely reported.
Asked to clarify how Norway had computed the JSF price, Ramskjaer said in a Dec. 5 e-mail that “Conversion between NOK and USD is somewhat more complex than multiplying with the exchange rate. The net present value is then derivated as follows: First, we periodize expenses according to the payment plan and adjust for the escalation indices. Then we create a “currency future” based on the money marked interest rates in the two currencies, as advised by the Norwegian Ministry of Finance. Those “currency futures” are then used for each period, converting foreign currencies to NOK. Last, we discount with a factor to get real time yearly cost.”
Additionally, Norway has calculated that the life-cycle cost for 48 JSF will total 145 billion Norwegian kroner (or $26.3 billion at January 2008 exchange rates) over 30 years, Ramskjaer said. This is also substantially higher than previously reported.
The $3.27 billion price tag is also incomplete. It covers “48 fly-away aircraft (Unit Recurring Flyaway, or URF, price) including Alternate Mission Equipment (AME) but not weapons or spares,” Ramskjaer said. In addition, the agreement with Lockheed Martin includes “an escalation clause to update the price at the delivery of the aircraft (when payments are due). We have based our estimates on historical development of the indices, and future predictions”, he added.
“Cost information provided to Norway in response to a Request for Binding information in April 2008 was a ‘budgetary estimate’ in 2008 US dollars,” Lockheed Martin JSF spokesman John Kent said in a Dec. 4 e-mail. The cost “includes aircraft Unit Recurring Fly-away cost plus Ancillary Mission Equipment, e.g., fuel tanks, weapon pylons, safety pins, weapons racks, etc.”
When these factors are added to the basic price, Norway will end up paying substantially more for its 48 JSFs. And, as the price is quoted in dollars, currency fluctuations over the next six years will substantially affect the final price in Norwegian kroner.
“We do not understand how the Norwegians came to the figures that they presented,” Lasse Jansson, a spokesman for Gripen International, said in a Dec. 5 e-mail. He added that officials from Gripen parent company Saab AB and the Swedish Defence Matériel Agency, FMV, had been debriefed by Norwegian officials on Dec. 4, and that “we are now trying to sort out if what we got out of that meeting made things [any] clearer to us.”
Norway has made provisions for other cost variations, such as “future growth (material and labor) indices, currency terms, net present value of the future investment etc, all which has been calculated according to Ministry of Finance directions,” Ramskjaer said.
Given these uncertainties regarding prices, and the fact that the contract will not be signed until 2014, today’s Norwegian JSF price figures are pretty meaningless. It is thus difficult to understand how Norway’s Parliament can usefully debate the proposed JSF acquisition during the debate it has scheduled for Dec. 19.
Other prospective JSF customers are no better informed regarding JSF prices. Asked whether he was “any clearer about the unit cost of a Joint Strike Fighter” than during a previous hearing in January 2008, General Sir Kevin O’Donoghue, Britain’s Chief of Defence Materiel, told the House of Commons Defence Committee on November 25, 2008 that “No, I do not think I am, am I?”
Another apparent inconsistency is that Norway’s basic $68.12 million unit price tag is substantially lower than the price the US Air Force expects to pay for the F-35s it plans to order in FY 2013, one year before Norway expects to sign its contract.
According to USAF FY2009 budget documents :
http://www.saffm.hq.af.mil/shared/media/document/AFD-080204-081.pdf
(page 43), the US Air Force’s 48 F-35s planned for FY2013 will cost $4.336 billion, or $90.3 million per aircraft.
When advance procurement costs ($468.8 million) and initial spares ($372.7 million) are added, the USAF’s total bill for the 48 aircraft increases to $ 5.177 billion, or $107.8 million per aircraft, about 57% more than the URF price offered to Norway.

Ramskjaer declined to comment on the price differential with the USAF order, but said that “on a general basis we can say that the learning curve could have an effect on the acquisition cost (low rate initial production vs. mass production). It all depends when the aircraft is ordered, and which block/batch they will [originate] from.” Lockheed’s John Kent referred questions on this subject to the US government JSF Program Office.
Thus, contractual price information will not be refined until the contract is signed in 2014, and many factors can change substantially over those six years. Ramskjaer says, for example, that Norway did not receive, nor did it expect, a firm price at this stage, and that contractual prices, escalation clauses and penalty clauses for late delivery “will be addressed in the [2014] contract.”
-ends-
What if they do use the Varyag and breach the original deal that she would never be rebuilt or used as a military ship!? Is there anything that can be done against them legally, not that the chinesse would care!
was that an original condition for the purchase?
BAE Systems Awarded Adelaide Class Frigate Support Contract
(Source: BAE Systems; issued December 8, 2008)
SYDNEY, Australia — BAE Systems has been awarded a five-year contract to provide engineering, maintenance and supply support to the Royal Australian Navy’s four guided missile frigates (FFGs).
BAE Systems will assume the Integrated Materiel Support service delivery for the Adelaide Class frigates, HMAS Darwin, HMAS Melbourne, HMAS Newcastle and HMAS Sydney from 1 January next year.
The performance-based contract is expected to generate approximately $60 million in revenue over the life of the agreement. The scope of the contract will see BAE Systems:
— Managing integrated materiel support including quality management;
— Undertaking engineering analysis, changes and support;
— Planning for all maintenance activities, preparing work instructions, responding to defects and preparing technical documentation, and
— Providing inventory analysis and planning, management of spares and other supply support.BAE Systems Australia’s Managing Director Jim McDowell said today that the contract would also significantly enhance the company’s strategic footprint at the Garden Island naval facility in Sydney.
“This new contract will require BAE Systems to create 60 new jobs at Garden Island and North Ryde, more than doubling the size of our existing workforce there,” Mr McDowell said.
“The awarding of this contract is another example of BAE System’s capabilities in providing the best possible through-life support for the RAN.
BAE Systems is the premier global defence and aerospace company delivering a full range of products and services for air, land and naval forces, as well as advanced electronics, information technology solutions and customer support services. With approximately 100,000 employees worldwide, BAE Systems’ sales exceeded £15.7 billion (US $31.4 billion) in 2007.
-ends-
CVF delay
Navy faces aircraft carriers delay
By Sylvia Pfeifer and Alex BarkerPublished: December 4 2008 23:32 | Last updated: December 4 2008 23:32
The Royal Navy will have to wait up to two years longer for its £4bn aircraft carriers under cost-cutting plans being finalised by John Hutton, defence secretary.
The decision to push back one of the government’s sacrosanct defence equipment programmes represents a sharp reversal. Ministers have always insisted the two ships would be in service by 2014 and 2016.
According to industry insiders, the Ministry of Defence is considering two options: delaying the in-service date of the first carrier by 12 months or delaying the second ship by up to two years.
Mr Hutton’s willingness to delay such an important programme underlines the severity of the cash crisis facing the MoD. He has expressed determination to make the department “live within its means” while prioritising support for frontline troops in Iraq and Afghanistan.He is expected to stress that investment will not stop and there will be no impact on jobs. The delay, intended to spread costs, will also help synchronise the project with the expected delivery in 2017 of the F-35 Lightning II or Joint Strike Fighter, the aircraft being built to fly from the ships.
Industry executives think the earlier in-service dates unrealistic given the contract for the programme was signed this year.
The results of a review of the equipment programme are expected early next week. No major programmes will be cancelled but most will face some delay. The moves will not be enough to allow the MoD to balance its budget for 2009.
Future Lynx, the £1bn helicopters programme, is safe although the final number ordered will be cut marginally. AgustaWestland, the defence contractor, will be awarded an additional contract to upgrade existing Lynx helicopters for use in Afghanistan.
A £16bn programme to build armoured vehicles for the army will be revamped. The MoD is expected to prioritise investment in the Scout reconnaissance vehicle rather than the Fres utility vehicle, in a blow to General Dynamics, the US contractor that this year won a provisional contract for the design.
The Society of British Aerospace Companies wrote to Alistair Darling, chancellor, and Peter Mandelson, business secretary, before last month’s pre-Budget report urging them to consider the contribution the sector could make to an economic stimulus package.
On Thursday night the MoD said it hoped to make an announcement “in due course”.
Additional reporting by James Blitz
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/bb1b9392-c252-11dd-a350-000077b07658.html?nclick_check=1
Equipment Examination
(Source: UK Ministry of Defence blog; issued Dec. 5, 2008)
The Financial Times has reported that the Royal Navy will have to wait up to two years longer for its £4 billion aircraft carriers.
Since May 2008 the Ministry of Defence has been examining its equipment programme to identify potential savings and reprioritise spending to support current operations better. The aims of the examination were to adapt to the rising cost of high-end defence equipment and to provide more support for current operations.
We will announce the outcome of the examination shortly. Its results will provide an important input to our 2009 planning round, which will be completed in Spring 2009.
We have also undertaken to inform Parliament of significant decisions affecting projects as soon as we are able to do so.
We are determined to do more to support our people here and on the front line. To do that, we need to better prioritise our spending plans.
-ends-
the news in the FT:
Navy faces aircraft carriers delay
By Sylvia Pfeifer and Alex BarkerPublished: December 4 2008 23:32 | Last updated: December 4 2008 23:32
The Royal Navy will have to wait up to two years longer for its £4bn aircraft carriers under cost-cutting plans being finalised by John Hutton, defence secretary.
The decision to push back one of the government’s sacrosanct defence equipment programmes represents a sharp reversal. Ministers have always insisted the two ships would be in service by 2014 and 2016.
According to industry insiders, the Ministry of Defence is considering two options: delaying the in-service date of the first carrier by 12 months or delaying the second ship by up to two years.
Mr Hutton’s willingness to delay such an important programme underlines the severity of the cash crisis facing the MoD. He has expressed determination to make the department “live within its means” while prioritising support for frontline troops in Iraq and Afghanistan.He is expected to stress that investment will not stop and there will be no impact on jobs. The delay, intended to spread costs, will also help synchronise the project with the expected delivery in 2017 of the F-35 Lightning II or Joint Strike Fighter, the aircraft being built to fly from the ships.
Industry executives think the earlier in-service dates unrealistic given the contract for the programme was signed this year.
The results of a review of the equipment programme are expected early next week. No major programmes will be cancelled but most will face some delay. The moves will not be enough to allow the MoD to balance its budget for 2009.
Future Lynx, the £1bn helicopters programme, is safe although the final number ordered will be cut marginally. AgustaWestland, the defence contractor, will be awarded an additional contract to upgrade existing Lynx helicopters for use in Afghanistan.
A £16bn programme to build armoured vehicles for the army will be revamped. The MoD is expected to prioritise investment in the Scout reconnaissance vehicle rather than the Fres utility vehicle, in a blow to General Dynamics, the US contractor that this year won a provisional contract for the design.
The Society of British Aerospace Companies wrote to Alistair Darling, chancellor, and Peter Mandelson, business secretary, before last month’s pre-Budget report urging them to consider the contribution the sector could make to an economic stimulus package.
On Thursday night the MoD said it hoped to make an announcement “in due course”.
Additional reporting by James Blitz
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/bb1b9392-c252-11dd-a350-000077b07658.html?ncl…
india agrees!
Gorshkov: Medvedev on his way, Centre okays price renegotiation
Posted: Dec 03, 2008 at 0106 hrs IST
Delhi: On the eve of Russian President Dmitry Medvedev’s visit to India, the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) on Tuesday gave in to Moscow’s demands and gave the go-ahead to the Defence Ministry to renegotiate the price for aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov. The Russians had been demanding upwards of $2.2 billion for overhauling the 44,500 tonne warship that was commissioned into the erstwhile Soviet Union Navy in 1978. The reworked purchase agreement will be signed in the next three months and the ship is expected in India in 2012.
Top Government sources said the CCS finally decided in favour of purchasing Admiral Gorshkov as it was the best option available to New Delhi with more than 65 per cent of Indian Navy made up of Russian built frigates, destroyers and submarines. Further, any friction with the Russians on the Gorshkov issue could also jeopardise future military hardware purchases, including the Akula-class nuclear submarine. The fact that the Chinese Navy is also expanding at a rapid pace also worked in favour of the Russian ship.
India agrees , pays 2,2 bln USD more for the Gorshkov
Gorshkov: Medvedev on his way, Centre okays price renegotiation
Posted: Dec 03, 2008 at 0106 hrs IST
Delhi: On the eve of Russian President Dmitry Medvedev’s visit to India, the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) on Tuesday gave in to Moscow’s demands and gave the go-ahead to the Defence Ministry to renegotiate the price for aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov. The Russians had been demanding upwards of $2.2 billion for overhauling the 44,500 tonne warship that was commissioned into the erstwhile Soviet Union Navy in 1978. The reworked purchase agreement will be signed in the next three months and the ship is expected in India in 2012.
Top Government sources said the CCS finally decided in favour of purchasing Admiral Gorshkov as it was the best option available to New Delhi with more than 65 per cent of Indian Navy made up of Russian built frigates, destroyers and submarines. Further, any friction with the Russians on the Gorshkov issue could also jeopardise future military hardware purchases, including the Akula-class nuclear submarine. The fact that the Chinese Navy is also expanding at a rapid pace also worked in favour of the Russian ship.
Congratz Wanshan :p
wait until he starts walking:dev2: 😀