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thobbes

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  • in reply to: Doubting PLA capability – the human factor #2284162
    thobbes
    Participant

    Not all Chinese publications on the PLA are from the mainland. There are a lot of Taiwan and Hong Kong scholars who do a lot of work in this field.

    It’d be interesting to read the Taiwanese ones.

    in reply to: Doubting PLA capability – the human factor #2284163
    thobbes
    Participant

    I automatically cringe at that — without a more in depth sociological or psychological study into this claim, which otherwise comes off as a stereotype (not that I’m disputing it’s not true)

    My experience both at Uni and work unfortunately supports that stereotype. Some very capable and intelligent people of course, but more reliant on their superiors while at Uni they never questioned lecturers at all or even sought clarification, unlike us loudmouthed Australians.*

    *Australians are interesting. Nominally we abhor authority, but in reality we just bark loudly about how authority sucks but then clamour for authority.

    Most common thing I ever hear in any conversation is surely “government should do something about that.”

    Agreed (but there are also cultural quirks that may work in favour of PLA).

    Very true.

    (And a lack of innovation — which is questionable, in terms of both hardware and procedure, at least recently — doesn’t logically follow from a cultural tendency to defer to superiors, if it exists substantially enough to affect military-industrial and operating culture)

    Again true.

    This is part of my question raised about PLA. How flexible is it, given both its military history/traditions as well as overall culture.

    How rigid are the command hierarchies?

    How much is initiative valued or allowed?

    It’s interesting that the Wehrmacht promoted initiative and flexibility but failure was met with harsh punishment (as opposed to emphasis on learning why failure was met).

    in reply to: F-35 News, Multimedia & Discussion thread (2) #2284170
    thobbes
    Participant

    Israel looking at 2nd squadron of 20 jets:

    http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/israel-to-seek-second-f-35-squadron-391165/

    The article is all a bit “meh” as Israel has always planned 100 F-35s by 2030.

    in reply to: Waging an air war in North Asia – 2025 Scenario #2284174
    thobbes
    Participant

    We test drove a Dodge Calibre and found it to be gutless. Brought a Mazda 3 instead.

    American cars used to be good when they produced these kind of bruisers:

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/23/Pontiac_GTO_1966.jpg/800px-Pontiac_GTO_1966.jpg
    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/96/Dodge.383.magnum-black.front.view-sstvwf.JPG/280px-Dodge.383.magnum-black.front.view-sstvwf.JPG

    Or sex on wheels:

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/36/1968_corvette_convt.jpg/280px-1968_corvette_convt.jpg

    Shame I could only afford a new Mazda 3 (I paid for it in cash after all, could’ve got something better if I wanted more debt).

    in reply to: Doubting PLA capability – the human factor #2284180
    thobbes
    Participant

    The other thing is that until one has experienced the crucible of combat, all analysis is academic and hypothetical.

    As I keep saying last time China went to war in any fashion was unsatisfactory 1979 invasion of Vietnam.

    The modern PLA has not encountered war even in the limited fashion that the US and co and Russia have over the last 20 years.

    in reply to: Doubting PLA capability – the human factor #2284182
    thobbes
    Participant

    Are they published in English?

    Also how much are they subject to the censors? I don’t even trust Western publications that much, especially the commercial ones who rely on good relationships with militaries PR units to have continued access to information.

    Journals are different especially those published by formal military establishments or publications by think tanks such as RAND. But even then there’s a lot of pitfalls – e.g. Lexington Institute.

    in reply to: Doubting PLA capability – the human factor #2284185
    thobbes
    Participant

    The question is how far PLA has advanced in the two or more decades since that time, and how widespread the changes have been, and how effectively they could be used in wartime.

    This is indeed the question.

    And it’s a question that we have no data for and even no real way of measuring .

    And it’s something even the PLAAF fanbois can’t answer save for the provision of pictures of experimental toys.

    in reply to: Chinese Air Power Thread 17 #2284188
    thobbes
    Participant

    G’damn that bird looks big.

    in reply to: Doubting PLA capability – the human factor #2284189
    thobbes
    Participant

    If I’m a bigot, then you’re a sad deluded nationalist with delusions of nationalistic grandeur who references wars fought 60 years ago but ignores those fought a mere 30 years ago.

    Also ignore calous feeding of soldiers into the grinder with little or no equipment and often using massed bayonet charges I guess to people such as yourself, victory is to be obtained at any cost. All while sitting at your computer in middle class luxury. But then what’s a few hundred thousand dead and wounded peasants.

    Oh and the Vietnamese stalled China’s advance in 1979 without even committing their regular divisions or any forces committed to Cambodia.

    Basically the Chinese blundered in, got mauled by militias and reservists and then got out because their foray was unsustainable. Meanwhile the regular Vietnamese army continued it’s operations in Cambodia and maintained a large reserve of regular units to protect the capital.

    Also point of this thread is that the PLA is an unknown quantity, but whose previous incarnation was based on some shoddy principles (e.g. look at that great pyrrhic victory in Vietnam) and an extremely outdated doctrine and politicised military culture.

    Whether anything has changed is anyone’s guess

    However rumblings of PLAAF Flankers getting smashed in exercises against F-4E Phantoms or even the best PLA batallion commanders being unable to perform satisfactorily in combined arms don’t bode well for time being.

    In the end it’s all guesswork because the PRC is a dictatorship that doesn’t like discussing it’s true military capabilities.

    They don’t do exercises with other countries very often and they are usually non-combat orientated. (e.g. SAR).

    There is no combat experience against which they can be judged.

    We don’t get any publications in English relating to actual Chinese exercises or performance. These might be available in Chinese. I’m not sure if Chinese military journals are published or more likely if they’re available to Chinese public.

    in reply to: Doubting PLA capability – the human factor #2284192
    thobbes
    Participant

    1950-53 is not 2013 in case you haven’t noticed.

    And you ignore poor Chinese military performance since then e.g. 1979 invasion of Vietnam.

    And it wasn’t a straight fight – US never committed to all out war against China. It was bound by UNSC resolution.

    How long do you think the Chinese would’ve survived if the Americans unleased MacArthur. You’d be the first country to get turned into a nuclear wasteland.

    Finally the Chinese lost a helluva lot more men and aircraft than the UN forces in Korea. Those F-86s were smacking MiG-15s down in droves (even if kill ratios are overstated).

    If you want to extrapolate that to 2013, that means PLAAF/PLAN gets virtually destroyed whilst American allies get off far more lightly. In fact US air forces and navy survive largely intact whilst China gets to rely on CJ-6s for it’s airdefences after its expensive fleet of jets is annihilated.

    in reply to: Military Aviation News-2013 #2284195
    thobbes
    Participant

    99 Red Balloons anyone ????

    Ken

    Great song! And a great example of life imitating art.

    in reply to: Doubting PLA capability – the human factor #2284196
    thobbes
    Participant

    That’s the daftest thing I’ve heard yet.

    So according to you East Germany had one of the best armies in the world? Or Hungary? And meanwhile the Vietnamese military is rubbish according to your definition. And Indonesian army (largely dedicated to internal policing) is better than the professional Dutch one!

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All-time_Olympic_Games_medal_table#NOCs_with_medals

    Olympic teams have nothing to do with militaries.

    I don’t see how say a US Olympic basketballer or javelin thrower relates to US Army or US Marines (and difference in culture between those two is considerable).

    thobbes
    Participant

    I can’t believe those FLs are still flying! Aren’t they roughly based on PFs or PFMs?

    in reply to: Waging an air war in North Asia – 2025 Scenario #2284201
    thobbes
    Participant

    Agree that gold lust is a goofball and isn’t even Chinese. That said, this is a troll thread created by someone looking for bigoted responses. Goldust just happens to play the foil.

    Why is it racist/bigoted?

    You’re just not happy that it’s not all “China is great and kicks everyone’s butt.”

    The point of little aeroplanes and missiles is to wage war.

    Discussing potential scenarios about waging air war is a perfectly reasonable thing to do.

    Assumption of easy pickings for either US or Chinese is incorrect – as stated even Poland wasn’t easy pickings for the Germans (loss of equivalent of an army corp with lots of losses in armour and aircraft). And I suspect all the military nerds of the day thought it’d be a cakewalk and the Poles would not fight back.

    Remember Poland lasted about a month getting pulverised first by Germans and then getting attacked by USSR. France on the other hand lasted 5 weeks but then the French had lost before the war had started for a whole heap of reasons.

    in reply to: Doubting PLA capability – the human factor #2284227
    thobbes
    Participant

    It does relate to aviation. The performance of aircrew, ground crew as well as airforce planning, command and control is to a degree a product of both general culture and military culture.

    These things influence such things as taking initiative, aggressiveness/passiveness, flexibility, focus on planning (rigid, flexible), types of tactics as well as command structures and even things like maintenance and how things are used.

    Mind you there is often even difference in pilot culture between different pilots of different types (even if both are fighter types).

    All of these influence real life air combat.

    An assumption of equal human factors is poor.

    After all an Israeli flying a Mirage III/V is a very different pilot to an Arab pilot flying a Mirage III/V and then different to a French pilot flying the exact same Mirage III/V.

Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 2,012 total)