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thobbes

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  • in reply to: F-35 News thread. Part Deux #2287332
    thobbes
    Participant

    http://www.airn.nato.int/focus_areas/ap/ap.htm

    NATO Military Committee document MC 54/1 stipulates that The Supreme Allied Commander Europe, SACEUR:s air defence mission in peacetime is to preserve the integrity of NATO European airspace and to safeguard NATO nations from air attack. Air Defence, AD, to include the functions of Air Surveillance and AP, is a key element in maintaining the security of nations.

    In peacetime, NATO Air Defence forces adopt a continuous, 24/7, Air Policing posture as a measure to preserve the integrity of Alliance Airspace. This posture uses appropriate Air Defence assets to provide a capability to respond to potential air threats by the identification of unknown airborne objects detected by the Air Surveillance system as well as to take appropriate follow-on measures if required.

    In peacetime, designated Air Surveillance and Control System, ASACS units maintain continuous surveillance of NATO airspace and air approaches to NATO:s area of responsibility to gain, assess and disseminate early warning information. They render navigational assistance, if requested, to military and civilian aircraft to include warning of other air traffic, and they assist aircraft with in-flight emergencies, for example the loss of communication, in coordination with appropriate civil Air Traffic Control, ATC. Designated Air Defence units provide fighter aircraft for the Quick Reaction Alert Force, QRA Force. These fighter aircraft can be launched immediately to intercept, interrogate and identify unknown airborne objects detected by the Air Surveillance and Control System.

    http://www.aco.nato.int/page136314.aspx

    The NATO Air Policing Missions take place in:
    Baltic States since 2004 (24//7) 14 involved countries (2011)
    Slovenia since 2004 (24/7) Italy/Hungary
    Iceland since 2008 ( Provision of Air Surveillance and Interception Capabilities)
    Albania since 2009 (24/7) Italy/Greece

    Albania and Slovenia are not outer border members. In fact they’re mainly or wholly surrounded by NATO partners or NATO friendly Austria.

    And all the “inner countries” (aka Western Europe) generally has combat jets (Luxembourg aside).

    So if you have no air policing capability, then NATO partners jump into help.

    But air policing is to be maintained.

    in reply to: F-5EM/FM vs MiG-21 Bison #2287334
    thobbes
    Participant

    For most countries, upgraded F-5E is more than adequate for air policing or even combat duties. In Africa or a lot of South and Central America upgraded F-5 is basically equivalent to an F-22. 😀

    in reply to: F-5EM/FM vs MiG-21 Bison #2287383
    thobbes
    Participant

    I think the Singaporean F-5S/Ts have AMRAAM capability. They also have FIAR Grifo-F X-band radar as installed in Brazillian F-5s.

    Would Singaporean jets with AMRAAM have an advantage over MiG-21 with R-77? Does it all come down to radar power?

    in reply to: F-35 News thread. Part Deux #2287397
    thobbes
    Participant

    Isn’t air policing a requirement of NATO membership.

    This means intercepting mainly intercepting errant civil aviation.

    And NATO has been attempting to reinvent itself as an international police watchdog so hypothetically requires a considerable rapid reaction force.

    Though I suspect Europe will slowly let that idea die.

    in reply to: F-35 News thread. Part Deux #2287647
    thobbes
    Participant

    God grief!

    Those 6 F-16 used in Libya was quite enough. Six future F-35A will also be enough on any related missions.

    Norway have a direct border to Russia. But as thing stand, VVS are in fact also reducing its inventory, despite pouring billions on funding into building new units.
    China’s Geo-threats are none exsisting from Europe. Meaning China would have to invade Russia to reach us..

    Retain a viable capability.
    How many units is viable? says who? US?
    It is not Italy, Greece or Norways fault that US feels NATO need 3000+ new F-35 fighters
    Again there are NO reasons why we should increase our AF units.

    As stated Libya’s not a good example – it had virtually no functioning air force or air defense system. It was a turkey shoot.

    What happens when you come across any one with any level of air defence – remember ops over Kosovo were not that successful due to AD radars and terrain while in Desert Storm Coalition lost nearly 40 aircraft to Iraqi SAM. Whilst Desert Storm was 21 years ago, NATO might have to fight someone with equivalent level of airdefence at some stage.

    Robert Gates slammed NATO countries for running out of ammunition, for not contributing enough resources, for innefficient acquisition strategies and insufficient defence spending.

    And while Norway may be able to still contribute 6 F-35As out of its fleet of 48(+4), other countries will not.

    What happens when Dutch fleet goes from 85 to 42 a/c? Or Denmark from 48 to 30 a/c? Or Portugal’s from 36 F-16A/B to 24 (they want to sell at least 12 MLU)?

    Remember they have to maintain a/c for training, air policing as well as NATO rapid response reserve forces in addition to combat capable assets.

    More and more NATO airforces will become non-combat capable as their airforces dwindle. The same is happening with ground forces as well as some navies.

    This puts the emphasis solely on the US.

    This will put into question the future of the alliance.

    Will the US be willing to underwrite European defence alliances in the future?

    Already there’s a shift of naval assets from Atlantic to Pacific (going for a 40-60 split between Atlantic and Pacific). The loss of 10% of US ships in the Atlantic has not been met by Europeans who have instead continued to shrink their navies.

    So with shrinking militaries NATO becomes irrelevant.

    in reply to: Eurofighter Typhoon News & Discussions VI #2287652
    thobbes
    Participant

    Didn’t Oman buy an additional 12 F-16s to replace Jaguars?

    in reply to: F-35 News thread. Part Deux #2287658
    thobbes
    Participant

    Canadian numbers were pre-current crisis.

    I have not seen anything stipulating the Dutch reduced funding for F-35 – indeed the revised numbers are on cost estimates regarding F-35.

    in reply to: F-35 News thread. Part Deux #2287709
    thobbes
    Participant

    And what will the Southern Europeans do when their ageing AMX, Tornados, F/A-18s, F-4s. A-7s and F-16s start needing replacement?

    I suspect they will simply reduce fleets to Eastern European levels over time.

    Even without Eurozone issues, countries such as Spain or Greece or as proven, Italy, could not afford numbers for a 1:1 replacement of older types with F-35 or Eurofighter.

    in reply to: A fresh look at aircraft camo schemes- #2287714
    thobbes
    Participant

    NATO jets have generally been operating at higher altitudes when conducting air ops against any one with air defence.

    From that perspective boring gray is ideal.

    For low flyers, terrain specific camo is better.

    I also miss the old high visibility markings on US Navy jets.

    in reply to: Rafale Thread #13 #2287717
    thobbes
    Participant

    So has Hollande’s crew put anything out about buying additional Rafales?

    So far they have 180 on order to replace 230+ jets. And 5 have been lost already, thus reducing fleet to 175.

    in reply to: F-35 News thread. Part Deux #2287719
    thobbes
    Participant

    19K11 – well stated.

    in reply to: F-35 News thread. Part Deux #2287724
    thobbes
    Participant

    Way off. The price has everything to do with it. And especially the uncertanity thereof.

    Indeed Dutch reductions in aircraft numbers as well as issues in Canada with planned purchase are mainly to do with price.

    in reply to: Polish Air Force future – Su-22s #2288100
    thobbes
    Participant

    Unless financially forced I don’t see Poland shrinking the fleet further.

    By the looks of it though, if no SLEP is performed on Su-22 they have an automatic fleet shirnkage.

    I also don’t think they’ll be acquiring replacements in such large numbers even if the economy picks up.

    in reply to: F-35 News thread. Part Deux #2288103
    thobbes
    Participant

    Libya is such a terrible example of NATO cooperation. Major players ala Germany and Greece (200+ jets) and middle size forces such as Poland did not contribute jets.

    Other major airforces only contributed token contributions ala 6 F-16s for Turkey (300+ combat aircraft) and Spain (6 F/A-18s out of 160 odd aircraft).

    And a lot of the countries that contributed to Libya will see a major drawdown of forces in the near future:

    E.g. Netherlands – will go for from 85 F-16 to 42 F-16 then F-35.

    E.g. Italy – will reduce fleet by at least 41 aircraft (from 131 F-35 to 90). Cuts are probably deeper as there is 150 odd AMX, Harriers and Tornados.

    E.g. France – only 180 Rafales on order to replace 250+ Mirage F1/Mirage 2000/Super Etendard. And 5 of those Rafales have already been lost.

    E.g. Greece – potential retirement of Mirage 2000 plus older types still in service.

    E.g. Germany – will end up with only about 140 Typhoons by 2020

    E.g. Britain – Already lost Harrier and 2 Tornado squadrons. F-35 numbers and future of Tranche 1 jets unclear.

    Smaller numbers of aircraft means less for combat tasking. After all NATO airforces have to cover off training and home defence requirements and then provide jets for NATO tasking.

    Many NATO countries are only capable of domestic air policing (e.g. Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary, Croatia, Romania and Bulgaria) due to extremely small number of aircraft (10-14 on average) or operate older aircraft not capable of modern combat operations (Romania, Bulgaria and Croatia).

    The cost of F-35 and other modern jets just exacerbates this situation.

    And if airforces from strong contributors ala Denmark and Netherlands drop to lower numbers of aircraft, then that will reduce their ability to contribute.

    F-35 may be as good as 2 F-16’s but it can still only be in one place.

    in reply to: Polish Air Force future – Su-22s #2288123
    thobbes
    Participant

    …Or not as they’re strapped for cash.

Viewing 15 posts - 1,981 through 1,995 (of 2,012 total)