How many years has it been since desert storm ?
22.
It’s a great point in itself.
It’s been 22 years since the USAF last encountered a semi-capable foe that fielded a large airforce and large IADs with combat experience.
Iraqi IADS in 1991 was more advanced and capable than Serbia’s in 1999, Iraq’s in 2003 and Libya’s in 2011. Aghanistan had no IADS or airforce.
My whole point was to make the KC-10 as attractive as possible! Hence “free of charge”.:stupid:
Someone still has to cough up salaries and wages for hundreds of additional staff, fuel, bases including base modification (e.g. new hangars), base maintenance, housing for staff, maintenance of aircraft, training, budget for spare parts etc etc etc.
Apparently UAVs aren’t allowed to perform domestic ISR (airspace restructions),
That’s a very good point!
Regarding an A_10 replacement for FAC / CAS / COIN, the USAF might not care, but the US Army and SOCOM probably do. Might help with lobbying or even releasing joint funds (despite the C-27J debacle)… but probably only down the road.
US Army will never be allowed to operate anything even resembling tactical combat aircraft.
As for SOCOM, they don’t operate combat aircraft – it’s helos, utility aircraft and airliners all the way.
The US should offer them “free of charge” as long as it’s a Allied Partner.
Whose going to cough up the recurrent funding needed to operate them?
Buying the airplane is the cheap part. It’s operating it that’s costly (aircrews, maintenance, fuel, basing, auxillary facilities/services etc etc).
Once again the A-10 is in the sights of the USAF!! Has there ever been another aircraft so hatted than the true and trusty Warthog??
Problem is the US military is gearing up for a Cold War with China. The Americans also seem adamant they are going to have a Cold War with Russia too.
Deterring evil Communists is far easier than bleeding in some godforsaken country for no benefit at all. Plus it’s a far easier way to score money and getting high end toys than COIN.
Imagine how easier it would’ve been for USAF to obtain 750 F-22s if they had an Evil China to focus Congress’ attention on after fall of Evil USSR.
The US already has numerous ISR systems – a myriads of UAVs and a large variety of manned aircraft ranging from MC-12s to E-8s.
As for A-10 replacement, that is the F-35. The USAF doesn’t want another CAS platform to replace A-10. They want to replace A-10 with a multirole type.
In fact they’ve been trying to get rid of A-10s for decades now and are pushing to do it again. And they’re actually looking at getting rid of these squadrons by the looks of things.
And they’ve got rid of all the lighter FAC(A)/Observation types years ago (A-37, OV-10, OV-1).
This is the confusing thing about the Scorpion – it’s a type that fits 1980s market niches when budgets were big and not 2010s when US military is reemphasising high end peer level conflict.
Basically the competition in Western dominated markets isn’t really there and it’s even less than the 1960-80 period. It only exists where diversifcation is still pursued for political reasons (Malaysia) or where F-35 isn’t cleared for export (ME).
By the way F-35 basically replaces whole Teen series.
US level of dominance exists even more now than it did in 1960-80s:
1. The USA has taken over as the sole leader in the Western world.
2. A lot of European countries that would occassionally purchase French aircraft to diversify procurements no longer have to do so e.g. Spain and Greece.
3. Shrinking fleets means greater pooling in Europe and consolidation of fleets into single type fleets (as opposed to 2+ different types).
4. Western aligned Asia are still just as close to US in terms of security cooperation as they were in the 1950-90 period due to growth of PRC.
5. French aircraft lack weapons and systems integration into existing US systems which means more difficult and expensive integration than F-35 which effectively does follow on from existing Teen series jets.
Announcements by many nations that they are pursuing home grown 5th gen fighters (Sweden, South Korea, Turkey, India, Japan (?))..
Nothing new here.
In the past you had many indigenous projects but they generally never displaced US aircraft exports:
Japan – Mitsubishi F-1 and F-2 but they still brought F-4, F-15 and now F-35.
Sweden has always developed indigenous jets – J-21, J-29, J-32, J-35, JAS-37. JAS-39 etc etc
India – never really in market for US fighter jets. Was initially Anglo-French (Vampire/Hunter/Mystere) and then switched to mainly Soviet with some French/British. Also developed local HF-24 Maruut and Ajeet (modified Gnat)
South Korea – new, but still buying US jets.
Turkey – new, but also buying at least 100 F-35s.
Israel – Lavi (cancelled and replaced by F-16s)
Egypt – Helwan 300 (cancelled in favour of MiG-21)
Argentina – cancelled as well.
There was also other:
G-91 – Sold to Italy, Germany and Portugal but never overtook US F-104 and F-4s.
This should be an assumption in all threads…Just add it to, Everyone that praises the F-35 is on LMA”s books…Test Pilots (Only those involved with the F-35) are not to be trusted…etc etc
No need to get defensive especially as I always state that F-35 is the best bit of kit around.
In this case the assumption is if Dassault/EADS designed Rafale/Lightning as 5th generation VLO fighters and not 4th generation fighters. Call it an alternate reality scenario to allow an “apples for apples” comparison of the market.
It has nothing to do with trusting LMA or Dassault or EADS.
Remember F-5A/B outsold to NATO (6 operators) even better than MIII/V (2 operators despite MIII/V being more versatile and a better performer. This includes selling to richer countries ala Norway, Canada and Netherlands.
The reason was:
1. US political dominance of defence procurement of smaller European and most allied Asian procurement.
2. US economies of scale which meant USA could sell them cheaper and even give them away for free (Turkey and Greece).
3. Smaller users already locked into US support including training, maintenance, logistics etc.
Same applies to early F-16s v Mirage 2000s or F-5E/F v Mirage F1E.
So even if there was a better European option than F-35, it’d still not sell as well as F-35.
Agree on F/A-50.
A2G does seem superflouous – the Czechs are only considering it now for their 14 strong JAS-39 fleet after operating them for 10 years!
Dunno if the Hungarians have any ATG capability.
And the Croats have a grand total of 2 pilots qualified for A2G on their MiGs – the fighter squadron commander and the maintenance depot’s test pilot.
And over Libya a lot of NATO jets were assigned either to CAP (an A2A policing function) or Reconaissance including post strike damage assesment.
It was the same over Kosovo/Serbia.
For the bigger countries who want to occassionally get involved in low level interventions ala Libya, Mali, Sierra Leone, Afghanistan or even Serbia then JAS-39 and F-16 are good enough.
AESA is not required in either environment. In fact air policing usually involves heavy communication with GCI/air traffic controllers.
however the problem with that argument is that there are other US options available; the SH, and the F-16V (and the F-15 of course but that one is with the notable exception of Korea probably more expensive than the F-35).
…
Of course they’re not going to buy older aircraft.
Most NATO/Westerners didn’t buy F-5E/F or F-4E in the late 1970s either – they opted for F-16s/-18s.
Fair enough, If you do not intend on fighting tough wars, you really do not need expensive 5th gen. I have no issues with that line of reasoning.
The truth is that if you intend on fighting tough wars, you also need to invest in numbers as well as having a reasonable capability set in all military areas (ground, naval, logistics, C4ISR etc).
Not many countries do this and especially not in Europe.
Most countries that do are larger world powers or have serious outstanding issues with their neighbours.
The Euros for the most part don’t need 5th gen because they don’t intend to fight tough wars. That both Germany and France are ignoring 5th generation in favour of 4.5th generation. Spain was not looking at 5th generation for at least this decade – focus was on Eurofighter.
Do you need a 5th generation for operating in environments ala Libya, Kosovo, Afghanistan or Mali? Not really.
Isn’t AMCA stalled anyhow?
With India’s economy coming to a crunch, I don’t think they’ll be pumping too much money into AMCA just yet.
Tell that to the Israelis who have ordered the F-35 and value its capabilities.. (they wanted the stealthy F-22 as well)..
So vital that in fact by 2030 only 1/3rd of their fleet will be F-35AI (100 jets). Remainder of the force (some 200+ jets) will be F-15 and F-16.
Israeli air force modernisation has really slowed down since 1970’s:
1980-2010: 362 F-16 + 51+ F-15 = 413+ jets in 30 years = 14+ new jets per annum. The “+” denotes addition F-15A/Bs delivered in 1990s.
2010-2030: 100 F-35 = 100 jets in 20 years = 5 new jets per annum.
If the F-35 was so critical to survival of Israel, they’d be replacing a lot more F-15s and F-16s with a lot more than 100 F-35s.
But they obviously think that having a large-ish 5th generation fleet supported by a larger 4th generation fleet is sufficient.
This makes sense if you look at the threats around the region that the Israelis might have.
Too bad then that the JSF has amassed such a large customer base already 😉
The simple reason it’s American.
I’ve posted another thread to discuss why F-35 would’ve got that large customer base even if there were other better and cheaper options available:
Depends on the types of training. Remember Swiss are doing advanced training with PC-21.
:very_drunk:
Cost is a factor and Gripen won, period.
…and guess how the Rafale beat the Eurofighter in India …price.
Politicians are being sane for once.
If you’re needing Rafales or F-35s to defend your country, you’ll be needing more than measly 18 of them.
Remember Switzerland is neutral and wasn’t even attacked in WWI or II. They don’t need uber fighters.
Iraqi 1991 level IADS don’t really exist in 2013 other than with large powers.
One could fly a Super Guppy covered in radar reflectors over most of Africa, Latin America, chunks of Asia and Middle East and I’be completely stealthy because the IADS isn’t there and even civilian radar coverage isn’t completely there.
The next war won’t offer any more trouble than Kosovo 1999 as it will most likely be Syria or Iran or North Korea.
F-35 offers capabilities for fighting WWIII.
For those who don’t know what a Super Guppy is:
