glitterThis is pretty much my sentiment also. The Gulf states are unworthy of respect. If they want to buy, sure; but to play games with a nation like France … walk away from the table. Perhaps make any new offer 1% more expensive than the old, just to drive the point home. :rolleyes:
But at that time, UAE was the single country in exclusive talking with Dassault. Let’s see how the discussion will evolved with the new situation.
glitterI dont think bringing Pak and China into this thread is a very good idea….
But those two countries are certainly why India decided to launch such an ambitious MMRCA program.
glitterBased on what I have been told and what I gathered I’m of the impression that the EJ200 is a more durable engine with significantly better TBOs for the hot section parts in particular.
Don’t forget that the EJ200 enjoy some advantage in the metallurgic field in comparison with M88-2.
The M88-E4 should addressed that matter.
glitterFrance will have more serious budget problems in the future than Germany or UK.. Record number of old people, record unemployment rate and the general health system in France is eating up the budget more than in any other country in Europe.
In France the people can still retire at the age of 60 ! the same is 65 in Germany today and 67 very soon and France has one of the highest life expectancies in Europe. France has no other choice than cutting the defence spending dramatically in the coming years.
Well, if it’s to say stupids things related to politics and economy, you should try another forum, don’t you think ?
glitterMy 2 cents, the sequel won’t be set in the modern day.They have the perfect “prequel” storyline in the story of mavericks father and Viper…”bogeys like fireflies, all over the sky…” Anyone got any spare F-4s and Migs lying around?
Since Top Gun is more a story of a tormented guy than a movie about airplanes, obviously, that could make sense but I can’t see how you could fit Tom Cruise there 😉
glitterHave you actually seen the movie? The plot hinges on a competition for fighter sales with the Americans
No, it was a trap from arms smugglers, one former Austrian general, a french female pilot and one french guy from secret service.
Sorry, strictly nothing against USA, sorry. Quite the opposite, when it is said that there will be a confrontation with an American pilot, the character of Benoit Maginel was happy.
Come now – two American pilots over on exchange. One of them’s a professional stripper and the other is in bed with Al Qaeda.
Tell me that doesn’t sum up how (at least a certain section of) the French see the US. 😀
The blond girl is french and the american girl isn’t a professional stripper, she just did it during her studies.
The aerial footage is the only good thing about it, but I think Tony Scott did a better job with the technology he had at the time, than this movie did twenty years later.
Are you sure you’re totally inbiaised ?
glitterDon’t worry, if the Rafale doesn’t win, the Rafale crew here will promptly declare it had nothing to do with performance.
If the Rafale fail in India because of an impressive offset proposition, Dassault will talk of “typhoon-for-free because no one in Europe want them” :diablo:
glitterJapanese had asked Dassault for Rafale’s RFP at the early stage of its new F-X project, but Dassault refused to offer it then because of the unpleasant experience of Southern Korean F-X competition in 2002.
And those who laugh about the arrogant decision from Dassault were wrong (even if that remain a very non diplomatic one).
On a different topic, Mr Juppe is pushing again the discusion in UAE.
http://www.tacticalreport.com/view_news/UAE:_French_attempts_to_reactivate_Rafale_deal/2379
glitterIs the “truth” getting them contracts?
The “truth” said after a lost contract don’t change much if you want my opinion.
And they should know that there is a political dimension to such deals,
there is no such things like politics if I understand well that source
http://forum.keypublishing.com/showpost.php?p=1835482&postcount=12
but it is not like France is not using this factor as well. If you can not go to court and challenge a deal, you should shut up, throwing dirt is not going to help selling planes.
If you’re talking about the disappointment of Dassault in Switzerland, what is “bad” ?
glitterhttp://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/french-air-force-chief-confident-of-rafale-victory-in-indian-contest-366102/
http://www.expatica.com/es/news/spanish-news/france-confident–brazil-will-choose-rafale-jets-source_68805.html
This kind of PR is probably an effect of SwAF choise. But..
Why not lobbing for rafale capabilites instead of just being so dam confident.
Are you really implying that:
– Dassault is not lobbying Rafale capabilities ?
– The PR should have something like “Our plane isn’t that good” ?
Perhaps it’s a cultural gap here, but, I’m going to make it easier for you. They are confident because in technical evaluation, the Rafale has ALWAYS been in the top 2.
Also refering earlier losses to “politics” is like saying:
“Its not our fault, and therefor we will never learn from our mistakes, or look into how we can tweak our pricing and industrial cooperation (the latest problem, not politics)
Let’s see:
– Korea: Dassault won the technical evaluation in a non-open market. What conclusion can be drawn there ?
– Singapore: Dassault talked about political pressures, as I always said, nothing reliable leaked from Singapore, so, I don’t know.
– Marocco: problem of consistency between Dassault and DGA, the problem is suppose to be solved by the “war-room”. There is still the issue that the customer didn’t have much money in his pocket. What conclusion can be drawn there ?
– Brazil: Dassault slashed several times the price of their offer, so it seems they already heard your advice. Of course, how can you put aside the fact that our president backstabbed Lula about a diplomatic move from Brazil about Iranian nuclear program, and that, just few days after saying how close France and Brazil are ? What conclusion can be drawn there ?
glitterIf you read the interview with the CEO of Dassault, the problem of Dassault becomes obvious imho. It is never their fault and they never lose in a fair competition. Even if we see that the reasoning in Switzerland was quite logical, based on the need to replace the F-5 and the given budget. Rafale was the best plane, but the actual winner was good enough and leaves Switzerland with a billion bucks to spend on other purchases for its armed forces. If that is not a reasonable decision by Switzerland, then what is? Yet Dassault again thinks it was a political decision based on differences between Switzerland and France.
I don’t get your point.
So, what was the best thing for Dassault to say ?
We know that buying fighters has a huge political dimension, why do you try to dodge that part ?
Dassault and the French press have developed a nasty habit of badmouthing interested buyers, when they lose a contract. I bet we will quickly learn a lot about bribes in India from the sources close to Dassault, should Typhoon be selected. Such behaviour ihmo will surely **** off interested buyers.
If we look at the past, specially what happen in Korea, don’t you think your sentence should be “Dassault and the French press have developed a nasty habit of saying the truth” ? 😀
BTW, who is talking of the french press here ?
its kind of obivios that Gripen is more cost-effective and therefore a 3,3 billion USD Gripen force is more effective than a 3,3 billion USD Rafale force. Or 22 Gripen is better force than about 11 Rafale.
This is allways depending on requirements, but often in evaluations you hear that all contenders pass the technical eval.
Here again, what is your point ?
glitterIt seems Japan has chosen the F-35.
Are you sure you’re in the right thread ?
glitterWell practically the only thing i ever see on BBC these days is ‘EURO crisis’,
and now it isn’t about Greece, it is about Italy, and then Spain/France,
if they default.
If the new reform Germany is pushing for that forces member countries to save money goes through, (and it will), then France is in for cutting expenses.
My bet is no more than 180 Rafale
If we start to discuss about the coming crisis in a pessimistic way, you can bet that even China and USA will have to make some sharp cut in their defense budget too.
glitterHowever given the current financial troubles I strongly doubt France will order all 286. I would not be surprised if they stop at 180.
Please, mods, could you delete that post ? A french politician might read that.
Also it does not make sense to me to keep producing a 4.5 gen a/c until 2030. I think this will become clear to everybody when F-35, J-20 and PAK FA start fly in large numbers.
Oh yes, I can’t wait to see that 😀
Not really, Rafale in Japan was more like Typhoon in Norway.
The thing is things might be quite different in Japan since the refusal from Dassault to answer their rfp.
The American umbrella might be at risk with the crisis which is coming.
glitterButthurt statement by Dassault regarding the Swiss deal.
I have one PR in mind:
http://www.dassault-aviation.com/en/aviation/press/press-kits/2011/rafale-international-is-surprised-by-the-choice-of-the-swiss-federal-council.html?L=1&cHash=8328870e9f
What’s wong with that ?
Dassault butthurtness regarding South Korea.
Of course, Korea stated several times that the market was open which was a blatant lie etc etc
UAE saying that the French government couldn’t have done more to help, but implicitly says Dassault screwed it up.
That’s a way to understand it.
Sarkozy got way ahead of him self in Brazil, basically trying to push the Rafale down Lula’s throat by cornering him.
Impressive post, indeed.
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