glitter60% workshare for roughly over 30% of all aircraft planed to be ordered at the time?
France had the design lead for the airframe, but they also wanted SNECMA to have the leadership for the engines, it was obvious that neither the UK (RR) nor Germany (MTU) would have accepted that when buying nearly similar number of aircraft.
There is two questions, about two different companies.
1 – Dassault said since the beginning that you musn’t set apart the design of wings with the writing of fly by wire system, at Dassault these two parts are very tightly coupled. The direct conclusion from that it that if you must cut the program into 4 pieces, the propability of political choices will surpass the technical requirement, and you have the Eurofighter which required muc more fund.
2 – SNECMA who was lagging behind RR for decades and had a real breakthought in hand with the M88 at that time. Problem, the UK governement (perhaps after some pressure from RR) asked for the european fighter some conditions that would make the M88 useless. So France didn’t want to spent billions to make an expensive plane that would bankrupt SNECMA.
glitterUAE Mk2s shouldn’t be available before a replacement, and FAB needs something before UAE gets something new (SH, Rafale, F-35…).
Sorry but since the brazilian governement don’t seems to be in a good mood for a quick decision, I think that the swap of Mirage with UAE is still an option.
Rafale is probably out of the picture (French ministers harsh words on Lula position on Iran and trade agreement between EU and Mercosul didn’t help the “strategic alliance”).
I’m surprised that those two importants political questions didn’t sound that important when they arose but now are so important. 🙂
glitterI still believe the Rafale will win in Brazil but it will be a painful victory because Brazilians know how desperate the French are and they won’t leave any money on the table for Dassault.
Well, I doubt that in such competition, anyone get very high margin.
Dassaults chances to win in Indiac is virtually ZERO…Remember the RAFALE was eliminated once
And of course, you ahve an official statement from Indian AF ?
including the licence for the manufacturing a GE engine, the chances of the SH is far bigger than the RAFALE
And SNECMA for the Indian engine.
glitterThe UK, Spain, Italy, Holland, Turkey, Norway, and Denmark are F-35 partners and participate in the F-35 development, and most (if not all) will buy the plane… These countries are normally referred to as “European” and F-35 is normally referred to as 5. gen…
I was talking of develloping a 5th gen fighter.
In addition it is expected that also many other European countries will purhcase F-35.
Let’s wait for the final price first.
glitterConsidering the astronomical cost of the Mirage 2000 upgrade, that would be a quid pro quo.
I wonder if India haven’t done the following choice:
Russia: T-50
France: Mirage upgrade
USA: several (very expensive) transport planes
Europe: Eurofighter
So that, as you can see, everyone got a piece of cake.
From a political point of view, that would make sense …. except that with the last news from the poor economical state from UK, Spain or Italy, does the quator from the Eurofighter team weight more than France ?
AFAIK the only major military power these days that seem to have no immediate plans for a 5. gen fighter is France… Brazil is building a strong and modern navy that will include aircraft carriers and nuclear subs!
The whole Europe has no plan for a 5th gen 😉
glitterWe know about Corsica and the UAE much longer than August 2010 or what’s your point here?
Well there is ever a “nice bias” from some posters from both sides, c-sevens nonsense for example from the French side, ppps from the UK side. But I’m certain you know that this comparison is apples and oranges anyway.
My point is so easy that I have a hard time you can’t understand it.
When there are good news about the Rafale after exercices, you have dozen of posts “Exercises are groundless”.
When there are good news about the typhoon after exercices, you have dozen of posts “Exercices are so great”.
Also will any western country offer Missile tech, Cryogenic Engine tech, Nuclear Submarine on lease and critical help in SSBN program
Look at the french agreement with Brazil 🙂
glitter@glitter,
I suppose you mean 2009 rather than 2011. But to be honest I don’t get your point.:confused:
Oups, we got informations about that in August 2010 of course.
My point is that good news about Rafale in exercises have seen a tsunami of posts like “What happen in exercises doesn’t matter”, so after your sentence “A-G capabilities shown by Typhoon in various exercises” should see the same epidemic posts ….. unless there is a nice bias from some posters.
glitterThe aircraft has demonstrated its capabilities in the AG role multiple times during various exercises.
Dear Scoprion, you forgot that since august 2011, in the light of the results of excercises from Corsica and UEA, these are totally pointless and hardly worth the effort to write about that on internet. :rolleyes:
glitterThen you reply to my “says who?” comment by posting a link saying pretty much the same as the one I mentioned. The AESA will be in-service of 2015. I haven’t come across anything of Eurofighter saying “AESA will not be in service by 2015!”
From the link
http://defensenews.com/blogs/farnborough/2010/07/20/eurofighter-firms-to-fund-aesa-development-for-9-months/
Eurofighter GmbH, the industrial consortium that builds the Typhoon fighter, will “pre-finance” the initial development of the AESA radar the aircraft badly needs for export campaigns, but only until next March, CEO Enzo Casolini said at the Farnborough Air Show on July 20.
So, keep in mind that this article was written on Jully 2010 and the economical context is quite different right now for UK, Spain and Italy.
glitterHas any other contender come up with similar upgrade paths (which can well remain a fantasy) like the super hornets?
There is a project about a more discret Rafale with weapons inside a coffin like the pictures of that SH, but don’t ask me where is the program right now.
glitterWe are still demokratic. At least on paper. And I can’t think of any country in Europe with a majority that wants more power for the nameless burocrats in Bruxelles.
One of the problem is those “nameless burocrats”.
To stay on topic. European airframers will survive only as subcontractors of US companies and with niche products.
I find you have a real skill to explain future catastrophic events on a easy tone 😀
Your Air Armada of milquetoast “air police” airplanes cannot break through Iran’s SAM defenses, find and destroy their C-802 anti-shipping missile batteries that are sinking Europe-bound oil tankers. Energy prices skyrocket. Europe’s economy flounders.
Source ?
glitterIn US however there are today 3 industries with the knowledge to build a fighter: Northrop Grumman, Boeing and LM. In Europe I think there’s room (in a competitive market) for no more than 2 or, at most, 3 firms against the actual 5 (BAE, EADS, SAAB, Alenia, Dassault) that the actual “sum of monopolies” allow.
But, I want to underline, you need FIRST an unified europe. If you allow comptition now, you will kill every european firm because any country in EU: a competitive market mean you will look just at efficency; now, since every european country has a demand for no more than 100 – 200 aircrafts, it will be more efficient to purchase an US design (in wich R&D costs are amortized for 1000 – 2000 aircrats, instead of 100 – 200) and thus you will end up in killing all the EU firms.
If, instead, you make first an EU Air Force, you will have a demand for say 1000 fighters, so enough for EU firm to be competitive.
Certainly the most interesting post of that thread.
Well, you have certainly a very interesting point here, but honestly, do you think that those with the political power in Europe now are mature enough to go ahead ?
For quite some time, the only achievement of Europe are only about economic matters.
glitterClearly, the F-16 offers a lot of Value vs Price like the Super Hornet. Yet, its not in the FX2. So, what’s your point???
Nothing more than what I wrote.
I’ve heard nothing official to support such a claim. Do you have a source???
The white book of the pentagon from the Clinton administration, the historical fact that USA don’t want to push the ToT (have you heard of anything like that in Korea or Singapore ?).
I doubt you can support that statement. Plus, the F-15K was much better suited to the role of long range strike than the Rafale. As the North Korea Air Force is of little Air Threat to South Korea.
I don’t know, but you can explain me why the Rafale was put AHEAD of the F-15 ?
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/rok/fx-rok.htm
glitterIf, you want to compare Capability vs Price the Super Hornet is hard to beat.
It’s impossible to beat the F-16 block 50/52.
As for the Super Hornet winning the FX2. A month ago I would have likely agreed with you. Yet, the New Brazilian Government is taking another look and the Air Force prefers the Super Hornet. So, the Super Hornet is clearly in the fight……plus the Rafale is very expensive! Clearly, a big factor for Brazil.
1- We haven’t any idea of the opinion of the new president over international questions.
2 – Where is the super ToT from USA ? If we must believe brazilian sources, it’s quite modest.
3 – The opinion of the AF never matters otherwise, Korea would fly Rafale.
glitterI came across an old news and I was just wondering if the Rafale maintenance cost is twice the F-18s?
The target of Dassault was to bring the maintenance cost for the rafale very close to the mirage 2000 cost.
Two engine versus one but many integrated system to use each sub-system as long as they are working fine.
Until 2009, from what I heard or read, because of the engines (and the still quite low numbers of Rafale in AdA and Navy), the target is a remote wish.
That’s the reason for the existence of the M88-ECO I think.
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