i understood that russia had won the libyan deal. This from the BBC yesterday:
Lybia used to have a french and russian planes, Mig and Mirage, so what’s the problem with Sukhoi and Rafale ?
Which deal?
That one:
http://www.lesechos.fr/info/aero/020335927232-armement-la-france-bien-placee-pour-un-mega-contrat-au-pakistan.htm
French avionics for Pakistanis JF-17.
French planes/missiles/avionics/radar are frightfully expensive. Maybe the Arab countries with Petro dollars can afford it but I doubt Pakistan can.
Well, about missiles, I have a hard time to imagine MICA sold to Pakistan with so many chinese engineers everywhere.
About the radar, it’s the RDY-3 which is in fact the old RC-400, a sub-RDY 1.
As for Kuwait I find it difficult to believe that they will be able to withstand American pressure to buy F-18s after all the US has done for them
Aa I wrote already:
– Koweit AF is very pro-french now.
– Koweit where quite displeased with their Hornet inferior to Qatari Mirage
– Mr Obama not so offensive about Iran.
If his military openly favors the Gripen,it would be difficult for him to justify his decision to chose the RAFALE which is twice as expensive as the GRIPEN because of political reasons.
1) The Gripen was ranked before the Rafale BECAUSE it was cheaper.
2) Korea did it without problem.
3) You know how it works ? Lula is in charge and decide, point. Specially after a report from the AF where the ranking was made wwith commercial conditions in mind and not military one.
Remember this ,Brazil could acquire 72 Gripens instead of 36 Rafales to the same price.
Nope, because training pilots cost millions too.
so unless you prefer to buy plane without pilots, the gap isn’t as wide as you can imagine.
On the other hand, LULA wants to see his country in the UN Security Council his life-long ambition.. He certainly considers the possibility of a US Veto in case he doesn’t choose the SH. In case he choses the SH ,France can’t block him as he already inked a multi-billion deal with them. Sarko would understand this . Its a very difficult decison …
It seems that Lula had a totally different way of thinking the situation.
Three potential markets have already been lost for RAFALE,
Lybia: there was high rank officers from Lybia in France last week.
India: it seems that an important deal will be signed between Pakistan and France, so yes, I suppose it’s over in India.
Switzerland: the Rafale hasn’t lost, the market will just disappear 🙂
If Dassault loses in Brazil , the UAE would be the only country left.. But Dassault has 5 years time to find new customers..
There is Koweit who looks very interested. According to the french press, there were quite displeased to see that their hornets were inferior to qataris Mirage 2000. You can add the fact that the Koweiti AF was very pleased with their own mirage F1 + France being more visible on the iranian side than USA.
BTW could you stop with that myth of the “As soon as the JSF is available, all competitors are dead meat”, that’s so boring …
can only see Nicolas, TooCool, Kovy and a few others over and over vigorously slaming any non-Rafale piece of info that surfaces in the internet… This is not a contest to see who shouts the loudest.
We are all hungry of information, not weird interview with arguments stating that because of lack of informations from DAssault 30 years ago, Brazil shouldn’t buy the Rafale.
And please remember that all of you are sitting many thousand miles away from Brazil and even with the internet it is no easy task for you to really gasp the movements of the several different political pressure groups in action over here…
Not always easy, not always complex, believe me, the situation seems to be quite clear.
This is attributed by LOCAL observers as a result of the inability of the Brazilian president to obtain the discounts requested to Sarkozy during his Sep 7th visit to Brasília.
Since the very beginning, on french forums, we knew that perhaps he talked a bit too much without all cards in his hands.
It’s totally possible that he said something totally infeasable.
What is sure is that ToT is very expensive.
So the Rafale bid is NOT riding in the best of its possibilities at this stage, the longer the delay in announcing, it the worse it gets for Dassault.
You just forget one detail.
Lula was ineterested by a STRATEGIC partnership with France.
So, if you change the guy in charge, and put him in the same context, are you sure that the strategic point of view is different ?
Both of you are so wrong…
the main headaches for aircraft programs were always in this order
1) Engine
2) Structural design
3) Aerodynamics
4) Avionics
I was talking about cost only.
From an article in Air & Cosmos, the F-22 and Rafale made several BVR session, the RAptor kept his radar off and were able to locate the Rafale emission each time for an easy kill.
Please, if we are talking only about the airframe, designing a new one is much less expensive that doing a technological leap in avionics.
A stealth european fighter is possible while keeping lots of systems from Rafale or Typhoon.
@BlueApple,
LOL, what are you babbling about? HAhahaha
Look!…Someone is stealing your sheep! Run Fey, Run!
Seriously…go figure what you’re talking about, first.
Wow, so many technical arguments, I can’t keep up your pace
Honnestly, you wrote that you don’t know anything about the RBE2, why are you trying to convince us you’re a specialist of Russian radars ?
The curious thing is TMor f.e., knew for EF’s rebuttal a month or two before I got the mail, but kept silent like a fish. LOL, fanboysm…
And “not necessary” hasn’t anything to do with convenience, but necessity as the word says.
If the EF as a offended side, admitted the score, then the confirmation from Dassault is a formal matter, only.
What are we talking about here ?
Thanks for the training about words and such, but I don’t think it’s the goal of that forum.
Give us technical elements or stop trolling.
You can (& most people do) play all kinds of number games & come up with flyaway cost of the Eurofighter Typhoon & Rafale as anywhere from ~$80 million to ~$120 million.
We can imagine lots of different prices for a plane because of the package sold with it.
But the flyway price is suppose to be a naked plane.
The F-35 was supposed to be nearly twice cheaper than eurocanard (60 millions€ each) so where are we now ?
The cost of the F-35 is decreasing with each lot (year of production) & tracking BELOW PROJECTIONS which bring the flyaway cost of the F-35A to $70-75 million (FY2014 dollars) at full rate production.
You wanted to say “the cost should decreased with each lot, unless another bad news happen” ?
Actually PESA has better range than AESA, due the different signal generation procedure.
We heard several times on that forum, and using information from Thales documents, how the RBE2 was a PESA with a “limited” pure range because of its two “déphaseurs” (shifters ?? sorry, I forget the word in english) which implies more loss than what would have been possible with another kind of PESA but it was DECIDED like that.
Anyway, now, an AESA will get rid of those elements, so that, the minimum of gain I have read about the RBE2 AESA is around 30%.
[url]http://iagblog.podomatic.com/player/web/2010-01-15T06_02_44-08_00
My god, that was boring :rolleyes:
The official prices?
After the release of the “Projet de loi de finances pour 2009” by the French Senate its by no means clear that the French Tax payer is paying by unit less than their European counterparts. Actually it MIGHT be the oposite.
http://www.senat.fr/rap/a08-102-5/a08-102-516.html#toc236
Honnestly, and since the capacity gap betwen the two is in fact going wider and wider, I don’t think anyone should be surprised if the Rafale price is getting a bit higher (but certainly still under the one of the Typhoon).
In fact, as seen in Greece, the problem of the Rafale group lies with expensive weapons.
So my main question becomes: Is the information given in this interview mostly correct, or not?
Kovy called that person “lobby anti-Rafale”, well, I don’t know but what is obvious is that this person painted both presidents as liars:
About the ToT
About the price promised (the same than french AF)
Of course, there is that biased vision of the french embargo of Israel and Argentina.
So, let’s say that from the point of view of a very pro-gripen he is right :rolleyes:
1) Claims about Typhoon’s superior MMI are not made up out of thin air. Craig Penrice is a named source who has written and spoken about it extensively, and he is backed up by large numbers of unnamed sources, including from Singapore.
For an obvious reason.
The Rafale is much more versatile than the Typhoon, how could these pilots enjoy all the possibilities of a MMI when they don’t even use them ?
That could explain why the Rafale is now recognized as a masterpiece of MMI.
BTW, stop with Singapore, nothing leaked from there. At least nothing that make sense.
2) Rafale’s lack of power is certainly not ‘made up’. Singapore certainly commented on it, while the UAE’s desire for more thrust is well known.
Stop with Singapore, nothing leaked from there. At least nothing that make sense.
About UAE, perhaps the very specific temperature of that area could explain it. But if I were you, I would try to have more mature information about the question of the engines on those “Emiratis Rafale”
3) Confidentiality agreements haven’t stopped French pilots talking about ATLC, nor about Singapore.
I read several times how Singapore took seriously that question of confidentiality, I have never heard anything like that before ATLC.
DOn’t worry, with the important relation between UAE and France armies, if an officer said something about ATLC, you can be sure he hasn’t breached any agreement.
4) There’s no proof of a Rafale victory in Korea, and indeed the claim has been denied officially by the RoKAF. I happen to believe the claim, but acknowledge that there’s no proof, the fact is that F-15K won.
We have enough proof from our side, thank you.
Of course, the “proof” you’re asking means you want Korea to recognize that they lied in an international competition and lack of military/political independance. For obvious reason, you won’t get such an answer and you know that very well, it’s why you ask for it, because for you the Rafale shouldn’t be recognize with his own merits, only using a weird point of view.
5) All the indications are that Typhoon won the technical evaluation in Singapore.
Stop with Singapore, nothing leaked from there. At least nothing that make sense.
6) You say that: “Kovy, tmor and so on have hints but prefer to keep them since it’s the typical source that can be sound as biased. It seems that Mr Lake disagree with that way of thinking.” I dunno about anyone else, but I don’t care who tells me the truth, nor whether they are prepared to be indentified. If it’s good information, or seems to be good information, then of course I’ll pass it on. We’d never have heard about Typhoon spares shortages, or Tornado Foxhunter radar, etc. if we limited ourselves to official statements.
AS I said, they got the information and share few of them and only on MP. If you want those information, ask them. Err, be careful, it can be quite cruel for the Typhoon.
You never heard about Typhoon shortage while it happened for Rafale ? You couldn’t restrain yourself for 10 lines 😀
But be careful with those “rafale spares shortages” because it has been annonced at nearly EVERY foreign operation even when it has been denied by the french MoD. And as you said, the official statement always have the hupper hand.
Of course Belgium is arguably the home of the leading exponents of the art form. I don’t get Japanese comic art. It does nothing for me.
Mangas are great
For a forth time, today alone: Yes, typically has no say. But practically… it has. Because both MBDA and Dassault have good interest in proprietarising weapons and aircraft. It ties up their customer with their products.
You gave much more improtance to the couple Dassault/MDBA than it really is.
In the example I put forward, HAF can only use its SCALP missiles with its M2K5s. If they want to continue using them in the future they have only one option: Rafale. Guess who makes Rafale…
So we can imagine Dassault lobying the french governement to forbid MDBA of any adaptation on another aircraft.
But in that case, it’s not a “symbiose” we are talking about but lobbying against each other.
I remember that in Greece, Dassault complain that MDBA made much more effort for the Typhoon than for the Rafale.
Of course this works vice versa too. Dassault would never certify american weapons (paweways an exception) on its fighters.
But when Dssault spoked of the integration of AMRAAM on the Rafale, USA forbid it 🙂