glitterSo, you basically agree with my original estimation that the J10 is at least on par with the M2K? :p
Aerodynamically speaking, the J10 is much younger and more modern, so dont rely on me to under estimate it.
Im not a fan of the mirage engine, and here, I fear the J10 enjoy a real advantage.
About electronic, the -9 is european state of the art of end of 90s Im not sure China is on par.
Manufacturer’s missile range data is notoriously bad in terms of how much they can stretch the figure by applying different measuring techniques. But the weight they can’t manipulate.
The PL12 is nearly twice as heavy as the Mica. Even assuming French superiority in electronics miniaturization and propellents, do you honestly think it likely that the Mica has the same reach and final stage energy levels as the PL12? I assume I don’t need to spell out the implications of that.
OTOH, the Mica is near 30% heavier then the ASSRAM (88kg). Again, the limitations the physical size of the missile imposes on its performance when compared to dedicated IR dogfighting missiles is clear and obvious.
You missed my point. that guy made a comparison with a medium range missile about range. Whats the point ??
glitterAnd this is based on?
And this is based on?
There was little official ‘proof’ that the J10 existed at all until last year. Its lazy and self-serving to say ‘there is no proof the J10 has XYZ so its automatically inferior’ as you simply don’t know what the J10 has.
Very true, we know little about the J-10 but let’s say that experience is on Dassault side, so, statisticaly speaking, we can assume that the mirage 2000 won’t have to be ashamed of itself in comparison of the J-10.
The designer was stating facts. The PL12 outrange the MICA, which is handicapped by the design decision to make it both a BVR missile and a WVR missile. So while it is ok at both, it does not really excel in either field.
Weight:
PL12: 199Kg
MICA: 112Kg
That designer only shown his mastering of spinning data.
glitterRafale Family Of 21th Century……
5. Rafale MLU (Post-2020 to 2025…..)：
A. Completely new radar and/or other electronics.
B. Uprating M88 engines.
C. CFTs.
D. Major upgrading for fighter’s stealth and EWS.
E. UCAV controller.
A. You’re very optimistic about the evolution of the radar, I doubt we will see 2 important evolution of the RBE2 AESA from 2012 to 2025.
C. CFT are suppose to be an easy upgrade, if a customer request it, it will be (certainly ?) quicked finalized. On the other hand, should no one show any interest, they will never become a reality.
glitterThey were proven INNOCENT.
The inquiry was stopped, so, no conclusion of the inquiry :dev2:
Why would I make a deal under which you’d agree to recognise the truth – that black is black (Dassault are guilty of corruption) while I have to recognise a lie – that white is black (and deny that BAE are innocent)?
So, the Blegium gov would have stopped the inquiry, Dasault would be as innocent as a newborn ? 😀
glitterYeah, ‘cos you (like Flex) know better than the British courts.
No evidence of bribery. End of.
the british governement STOPPED the inquiry. The justice cannot tell “there isn’t any bribe” neither :dev2:
No evidence but so many soupcons …..
As to Dassault, there have been plenty of proven examples of bribery, and a few unproven. Nothing is proven against BAE.
LEt’s make a deal.
I already recognize that Dassault bribed in Belgium, why do you have any difficulties to recognize that BAE bribe in Saudi Arabia ?
Or another question, since french or american companies must bribe someone to sell in middle east, how BAE manage to sign such a huge deal without bribing anyone ?
By your logic, a punished criminal is less likely to offend than an innocent man. Complete idiocy, as I’d expect.
Except that your case, the innocent man has been caught with blood on his jacket and a knife in his pocket and the governement forbid the police to make any inquiry about that case.
Anyway, does that whole thread make sense ?
glitterGlitter,
You’re accusations are empty, without foundation and utterly dishonourable. The Al Yamamah deal was not, and is not known as the “the mother of all briberies”,
Sorry, it is, it’s not according to me.
and there is no evidence of corruption in that deal. Indeed all of the credible evidence suggests the opposite (see Wheeldon, Sheldon, Goldsmith, the SFO, etc. above).
There was an inquiry about that deal stopped by the governement.
When I read the link you gave, obviously, it was more about the “raison d’état” than being honest.
The Federal initiative Against new fighter aircraft (Groupe pour une Suisse sans armée (GSsA) ) lambasted BAE and Gropen International (against whom no allegations of bribery have been proven, and who must therefore be assumed to be innocent.
At the same time, they failed to point out that Dassault have been tried and convicted of bribery and corruption.
Perhaps there is another way to read that.
Dassault bribed the belgium governement, get caught, get punished and it’s over.
On the other hand, BAE bribed in Saudi Arabia, haven’t been caught because of the protection of the british governement. So BAE is free to continue to use bribes.
I dunno.
[b]”According to the Attorney General’s evidence, BAE has always contended that any payments it made were approved by the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. In short they were lawful commissions and not secret payments made without the consent or approval of the principal. [i][u]
So funny, I don’t even think I need to comment that 😀
glitterMN Rafales have not yet bested RAF Typhoons. Anyone who tells you otherwise is exaggerating or lying. Rafales have beaten Typhoons on exercise, but they’ve lost too. And according to the Italians, they lost more often.
I must say that on french forums, we haven’t get much return about it.
Anyway wasn’t it mainly F1 Rafale here ?
The Belgian F-16s achieved more kills than losses against AdlA Rafales in WVR – how that wasn’t a ‘dogfight exercise’ eludes me. The same is true of the Czech Gripens.
Because if the Rafale mission was to bomb another target, the main mission was killing those gripen.
It just means that up against better trained pilots, using better tactics (the Belgians) or using a better datalink (the Czechs) the Rafale’s margin of superiority can be eroded.
And as we said several time, most Rafale pilots are A2G pilots.
The claim that Rafale beat Super Hornet without loss is not a new one. It was categorically denied before I left for Le Bourget.
By whom ?
Anything less than a full Colonel is a junior officer in my book.
What ?? 😮 😮
So most pilots are “junior” ?
I’m sure they would like to be called like that 😀
Craig Penrice and Chris Worning were both there, and there were shedloads of customer pilots to talk to. You could even have seen the cockpit and MMI for yourself.
How wasting our time with the inferior MMI of the EF2000 ? :devil:
On the last thread I said straight out that in the flying display, the Super Hornet and F-16 outshone both Typhoon and Rafale
It seems that several french forumers share that opinion, so I won’tr deny it.
I was already fragged when I said that about the 2005 edition 😀
And I addressed your claims about Rafale by referring to checkable stories that demonstrate them to be false, or exaggerated. The RAF Jaguar, Czech Gripen and Belgian F-16 incidents have all been pretty widely reported. As to the US Navy Super Hornets – well it’s hardly my fault that you haven’t talked to both sides, and so present a very one-sided view of the Rafale/F/A-18E/F engagements.
The more you talk about that “RAF Jaguar” seems to imply that you’re more into the annecdotic trend than into a methodic one.
And then, of course, there is your past behaviour toward the Rafale that show that obviously, you’re not that neutral.
The fundamental problem is that you are inclined to dismiss and reject anything that does not show the aircraft you love in the best possible light – even when a criticism is of an isolated and unrepresentative area – eg that Rafale only won against Super Hornet most of the time, and not all of the time as you’d prefer to believe, or that at Le Bourget in 2009, the Rafale flying display was decidedly unimpressive, and failed to show what the aircraft can do.
So, both side reject what don’t please them 🙂
glitterThe Paris Air show is over, and there’s been good news on OSF, on further orders, and with some intriguing export possibilities on the near horizon……
Wow, I never heard about possible export of that system (specially when you know the price). What can you say more about it ??
@jacko: anything substantial to share from the Indian delegation, on “what India really wants”? (MoD? or AF? ;))
Sometimes, I really doubt they know what they need …
I wonder what is proposed for the longer term “stealth” upgrade…
New intakes for the UAE’s M88-3 should lower the frontal RCS given advances in the art, and could likely be back-ported to ECO users… Beyond that, IR signature reduction (new nozzles with IR-band shifting?) seems likelier than an out-and-out structural revamp to achieve “LO/ VLO” (X-band) status… ???
And you forget the “shell” around external charges.
But I fear that Dassault has thin margins about stealth, unless important redesign of the airframe.
Morroco went for the F16 and Lybia is said to be waiting the UAE deal to make an order. The same is also said about Koweit sometimes, even Oman.
I can imagine a non official wait and see from Kuwait or even Oman, but Lybia ???
glitterhttp://www.zinio.com/reader.jsp?issue=416085913&o=ext
interesting article about the rafale p 42
They confirm that Dassault isn’t interested about the Korean and Japanse studies about the 5th gen fighter, I still wonder if the company isn’t too shy about that.
After all, few companies would be able to fit the bill here.
glitterBut every deal doesn’t have an inquiry does it, whether or not a previous one was quashed. There has to be a suspicion for someone to call for one. No one even called for one in the Typhoon deal because there is no evidence, no reason to investigate it.
There is just the “mother of all briberies”, the nickname of the Tornado deal 😀
We are all aware that the journalist is mixing the two deals, don’t worry.
But what reasons? The accusations posted refer to earlier contracts!
Nobody holds expensive enquiries because a few people on an internet forum ask for one.
Because what could explain that the second deal wouldn’t be the source of important bribes too ?
But it’s too early to launch any inquiry about it, as we know in France with the Tawainese frigates, you must first let these funds flow into several countries so that it’s easier to spot “something”.
The Federal initiative Against new fighter aircraft (Groupe pour une Suisse sans armée (GSsA) ) missed one key phrase…..
Corruption
Lobbyists of all weapons have opened offices near the House of Parliament in Bern, where they conduct an auction advertising addressed to decision makers and military policies and the media. The limit to corruption is unclear. In the recent past, Saab and EADS have been suspected of corruption in connection with the sale of combat aircraft abroad Dassault, on the other hand, have been tried and convicted of bribery and corruption
Yep, it’s much easier to stop the inquiry on the flight 🙂
The national investigations in the Czech Republic, Hungary and South Africa has previously been closed.
But as the journalist said the main story is in Austria, nothing has been closed there it seems.
The decision noted that surveys show that the defense group BAE Systems, based in Britain, made substantial hidden payments linked to the campaigns in the Czech Republic, Hungary and South Africa.
– But of the evidence available, I can not prove that any representative of Saab AB or Gripen International intentionally contributed to BAE, in a way that would imply penalties in accordance with Swedish law
, to pay bribes after July 1, 2004. Any doubts before that date is barred, “says Christer van der Kwast.
A jewel of PR :love:
glitterSome interresting pics :
the classic 6xgbu-12
When looking at that picture, I have a hard time to imagine that the MICA EM can be fired 😮
Anyway, it seems that with UAE it’s damn serious
http://secretdefense.blogs.liberation.fr/defense/2009/06/le-figaro-r%C3%A9v%C3%A8le-laccord-de-d%C3%A9fense-avec-les-emirats-arabes-unis.html
Selon le Figaro, “la France s’engage à utiliser tous les moyens militaires dont elle dispose pour défendre les Émirats arabes unis s’ils venaient à être agressés“. Ces moyens devront être “définis en commun” par les deux pays.
Nothing unexpected here, with that strange “tous les moyens” which, as the blogger wrote could even include a nuclear “protection”.
glitterBut an inquiry is only required if there is evidence of bribery in the new case, which there isn’t. You find me some quotes from reliable sources that suggest there was was direct bribery in the Typhoon case and i’ll listen.
No, the goal of an inquiry is to find evidence.
glitterI don’t understand why you keep arguing about the case of S. Korea. Even without bribery hypothesis, if one takes into account that the US proposal was economically better (included a good stock of ammunition, correct?) and that politically S. Korea revolves around US (common headache in N. Korea), who would you expect to win? :confused:
.
Dassault knew that and asked the weight of the political issue and the asnwer was that the technical part is the main important one.
Even with the ECONOMICALLY side, the Rafale was slightly above the F-15.
That’s why Korean newspapers wrote that the french side won the technical part by a long shot.
Suppose there was a bribe and suppose the French were aware of it in time and bribed too. The Rafale would still lose… Just because you make it to a tender, doesn’t mean that you start with the same chances as everyone else.
I don’t understand what you wanted to say, but obviously, that’s not the point.
For the final time: The SFO inquiry had NOTHING to do with the Typhoon sale to Saudi Arabia, it related to a deal that occurred over 20 years ago under similar circumstances.
For the final time, the British governement blocked the inquiry about the first deal with Saudi Arabia, so obviously, any inquiry about the second deal is unlikely.
glitterOK the South Korean bribe was small (though $8,000 buys a decent dinner!).
It was several dinners as explain by the french side.
Not a word about the 2 millions from Boeing ?
But $200 m goes quite a long way in Pakistan.
Just like one billion in SAudi Arabia ?
And they didn’t sentence Serge to two years imprisonment for no reason.
Sure, the belgium governement choose to let justice made it his way and not “For strategic reason, the inquiry is stopped”
“We were talking of bribe related to Mirage, Gripen and Typhoon…”
Well, no we weren’t. Arthuro started off talking about alleged bribes relating to Gripen (there have at least been such allegations) and about Typhoon.
:confused:
Trouble is that the major bribery story Arthuro was droning on about related to Saudi Arabia. Where the allegation is about bribes relating to Al Yamamah, which has nothing at all to do with Typhoon.
How many time was needed to reach something in the Tornado case ?
glitter(In March 2002, for example, Dassault Aviation was accused of corruption involving the South Korean fighter jet contract. The company denied bribing a South Korean air force colonel to improve its chances of winning the deal to build 40 aircraft. Newspapers in Seoul linked Dassault to a Won11m ($8,300) sweetener allegedly paid to the colonel in return for advice about the bidding process.
Around $5000 IIRC, that were several restaurant bills, nothing more.
Obviously, if you can believe that myth of a high rank officer bribe with few thousand dollars, you’re ready to believe the JOUST myth 🙂
BTW, Korean newspapers spoke much about about the technical advantage of the Rafale and suspicious of a $2.000.000 bribe from Boeing.
If you designed better fighters, boys, perhaps they’d win on their own merits
Right, like in South Korea ?
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