glitterMorocco needs something more than 30 upgraded Mirage F-1 and 18 Rafales (or 12 Rafales + 12 Mirage 2000-9) for get a chance against the algerian Mig and Sukhoi fleet, 36 upgraded F-16´s are a good option both in numbers and in quality
The quality of a block 52 versus a brand new Rafale ?
glitterOnly god or Dassault know …
Well, once the design was finalised, it’s hard to say how a pure ground based Rafale would have been.
From a less technical point of view, the AdA use the same paint and salin protection than the navy for an obvious cost of around 30Kg.
glitterI thought Eurocopter was gonna develop a CH-53 class chopper…..what happened?
I fear that the market is too tight for such a product of European origin.
With the first rumors of that chopper came the possibility of a joint venture with Sirkorsky about a CH-53 upgrade, but it seems it’s over now.
glitterFor $ 10 Billion, they’d be glad to prostrate- whoever lands this deal has his future secure for quite some time. The licensing costs, etc will all add upto a pretty packet.
Future secured ?
You will paid few dollars per plane, that will be build in India + you must give them your technologies.
I think there must be some elements inside these 200 pages that we don’t know.
glitter. And why was EAPs FCS “a nightmare to set up”?
Even DAssault said something about it.
In fact, they said that the design was made in England while the fcs writing was done in Germany which is a total absurdity, these two tasks are so close with each other that at Dassault, they work in the same room.
glitterI would kill to have more about RBE-2. But the only things i can tell you are :
-MN pilots said that the RBE-2 of standard F1 has similar range to RDY.
-with standard F2, the range has been increased, but i think it’s by a very little amount.
Sorry, I thought it was the “opposite”
Rafale F1: “shorter range” RBE2 but with constant upgrade of the radar
Rafale F2: dame range as the RDY
glitterJapan won’t get F-22. Japan has demonstrated its willingness to buy non-US with the EH101.
Giving up before you start is no way to sell airplanes, IMHO.
After Korea and Norway, the Raafle team is totally fed up with so called “market” that is polotically closed which turn into a net loss of several millions of euros each time.
They ask to Japan “Is the competition open and fair” and don’t even get a positive answer.
Saying that because they bought EH-101 means they are totally open for EF2000 is VERY naïve from a skilled journalist such like you.
glitterThis was what the public supposed. The RAF and IAF were more interested in familarization flights and some basic excercises. There was no full scale Su-30MKI vs Typhoon battle. But I don’t see where the desaster is:confused:
Don’t tell me that suddenly everybody forget the JOUST “analysis” ?
That’s right but the Captor has demonstrated its range capabilities against sparing partners and fighters acting as threat aircraft. This was confirmed by forgeign as well as native customer pilots both operational and test crews.
Don’t tell me that you have never read John Lake or Jacko about the foreign pilots that has to speak in very diplomatic term, so that a Typhoon pilot saying that the MMI of the Rafale is excellent is not revelant.
That’s not definite. The CAESAR is an industry funded programme. There is currently no requirement for an AESA, but industry says “we can offer it from 2011”.
When the IRST-NG is in the same situation, I heard many posters saying that the program is cash strapped and that no industrial reasons can explain that.
No one says Captor has all the advantages of an AESA, what is said is that the services are fully satisfied with the current Captor as it performs beyond expectations/specifications.
Sorry, I have never write that someone pretend that the CAPTOR = performance of AESA but that at least someone (read, Mr John Lake) said that the CAPTOR has nearly all the advantages of an AESA.
Of course, the fact that the AESA is so close means that it’s pure BS
All speak about the theoretical capabilities of AESA, but exclude what is really fact for the fielded systems. And many people seem to forget that a radar doesn’t soley consist of an array.
Specially for AESA.
In France, Thales and DGA said that they won’t be able to develloped every features possible with an AESA.
I think that after AMSAR, another european cooepration is plausible.
As Satorian asked, just some closer details would be nice.
Details of what ?
That the RAfale was ranked first ?
For the greek competition or what? Interestingly it wasn’t and isn’t BAE which negotiates with the greek, but EADS-D.
Oups, EADS of course 😀
glitter1) IT’s obvious that the RBE2 was made with that upgrade in mind.
No, the Frenchman was unable to build a ASEA!
Do you have a problem with “upgrade” or “was” ??
I remember articles in early 90’s, the technologie was immature, the range itself was limited AND the cost was amazingly high.
PESA and AESA differ enormously in the control mechanisms.
What do you call “control mechanism” ?
For the RBE2-AA the T/R modules come from Germany supplied by UMS Ulm.
Call me paranoid, but why didn’t you wrote that the Germano-French UMS will make the modules from a site in Germany ?
Do you have any substantial inside information going either way?
I’m just asking where is the confirmation of that wonderful JOUST analyse 😀
“According to many Rafale cheerleaders the RBE2 has nearly ALL the advantage of an AESA
You’re wrong, end of the story.
We perfectly know why we are going the AESA way.
Have you got some (translated) links at hand? I’m always intered to read foreign evaluations of the competitions.
During the Korean evaluation, I chatted with korean fans.
On Singapore, the only useful informations I heard from french sources are:
– The Euro value that was a real hindrance at that time.
– A much more flexible proposition from a commercial point of view
– the weapons package of the F-15 was much better.
glitter[I]”And the aeroplane itself has some impressive features – and the French did a great job in getting it into service with a wide variety of useful weapons.
Quoting one of the main rafale weakness and state it as a strong point, funny.
Radar performance isn’t just the max range, though that’s the key parameter.
But a “raw” impressive max range doesn’t automaticaly translate into an axcellent range in real life.
Rafale will “get the AESA asap.” It’s less urgent for Typhoon.
1) IT’s obvious that the RBE2 was made with that upgrade in mind.
2) According to the CAPTOR AESA, the Typhoon should get the AESA BEFORE the rafale.
3) According to many Typhoon cheerlearders, the CAPTOR has nearly ALL the advantage of an AESA BUT the upgrade is on the way. Translation: the captor isn’t as good as some have written on internet for years.
And the evaluation teams in Singapore and South Korea preferred Typhoon. The Koreans didn’t want to wait for the aircraft, the RSAF were keen to wait but were overruled.
1) Strange that the Korean journalists have to disagree with you :diablo:
2) Are you sure it isn’t the opposite ? Singapore couldn’t wait … ?
3) They can’t speak ? I’m sorry for them. In france, many journalist spoke of the french secret service information about a direct fund from BAE to a relative of the greek MoD on a lebanon account.
glitterWhich Su-30MKI desaster?
The EF2000 was supposed to spank su-30 butts “big time”.
glittergreat videos of the rafale indeed.
I like how the french speak proudly of the rafale, opposing to how the brits treat their eurofighter. particularly the media.
1) Mr Dassault bought the second french newspapers.
2) Don’t forget that from a cultural point of view, french have quite lots of confidence from the state, and things from the state, while in anglo-saxon culture, it’s VERY different 🙂
3) To be honest, I can’t see why the lack of criticicism about the rafale (of course, with the exception of “Damn, it’s expensive”) is something to be proud of.
glitterBut they do get a bit carried away sometimes, and a lot of them are unwilling to admit any weakness, failing, or inferiority, or they will say that they will acknowledge weaknesses and then fail to do so.
Jacko, you’re still applying the same tactics, which are now boring.
In the paragraph just caught, you said “look french posters don’t recognize any weakness”
But in your post above, you quote an article saying that the RAfale is “Frightfully underpowered” or another pathetic post where you tried to explain us that Dassault forget to put a radar in the nose.
That’s not weakness, that’s pathetic technical failures, so, a totally different matters than just “weakness”.
So I’d say that while the Rafale is a bloody good, bloody impressive aeroplane, it doesn’t quite live up to the hype put about by the more nationalistic French Rafale fan boys.
The Rafale is a bloody good aeroplane.
I fear that the EF2000 doesn’t live up to the hype of his favorite cheerleader, ie JOUST.
Where is the Su-30 MKI disaster ?
That doesn’t mean that there aren’t many ways in which the Rafale hasn’t set new standards, and hasn’t done better than Typhoon.
In the area of programme management, focus, getting and keeping public and political support, Rafale makes the Eurofighter programme look like a joke.
Translation:
The RAfale is a great aircraft, even if technically speaking it’s behind the Typhoon in EVERY aspect.
That’s what you wrote.
But there are areas where Rafale lags Typhoon. MMI is one such area, supersonic maneouvrability is another. Outright performance and radar performance, too.
MMI: I’m still waiting something from the real world.
Supersonic agility: I always heard about that fact, even from french sources, so I can live with that one :p
Radar performance: as soon as you will understand that the performance isn’t just the max range, perhaps we will be able to chat about that point. But honestly, what I can see is that both planes will get the AESA asap. 😀
And this has shown in a number of export competitions, where Typhoon was preferred by the evaluation teams.
Like in Austria ? The country that doesn’t even get the plane ?
The only proven, undisputed victory of Rafale over Typhoon came in the Netherlands
And in Korea ?
And in Singapore ?
About the IRST, it seems that I read much more about it only now, while in France, the IRST new gen has been delayed.
glitterThe Brits will never go for Rafale M (even though it may be a better carrier aircraft), just as the French would never buy a wing of Typhoons for BVR.
The point is that there is no point for France to buy Typhoon, while Rafale on a CVF is meaningful.
The big advantage of Typhoon (N) for the UK is commonality with an existing in-service Typhoon, and as a means of maintaining Typhoon numbers and avoiding any cancellation penalties that would result from binning Tranche 3.
Sampaix/Thunder asked several question about the aerodynmic configuration of the Typhoon which may need to rework many aspects of the plane, without answer yet ….
I would prefer to take the data provided by the manufacturer in the official study…..:p
Official study that only you can read ……
Who is so proud of the “forward canard” ?
The Su-27K/33 and the Su-25UTG are in operational service, and the MiG-29K soon will be.
When I wrote operationnal, I wanted to say a really useful plane.
There are huge differences between the Hawk and the Typhoon, but the process and problems of navalisation are similar.
But can you be sure the same solution can apply here ?
The fact that industry’s figures (including the weight penalties) were validated by the users’ Typhoon Joint Structures Team adds to the study’s technical credibility.
I’m sure I will sound a bit too “anti-eurofighter” if I point the fact that I don’t know what credibility that group has with navalisation of plane.
I’m sorry that I annoyed you by saying that “I know the broad costs because I’ve spoken to people who know.” That’s the downside of being a journalist, as John Lake, Low Observable, and other journos who post here occasionally will confirm. We do tend to get access to people who know, first hand.
😀 😀 😀 😀 😀
glitterThe Russians pulled it through with the Su-27/33 , teh MiG-29 and the Su-25 all these were develloped simultaneously!
But none are in operationnal service.
BAE got it right with the Hawk>Goshawk… I dont see why the Eurofighter would be any harder… But it would sure be another BIG nail into the Rafale’s export possibility coffin…
The difference between a Hawk and the EF2000 ? I’m sure that I can find one or two.
And about the “naval” EF2000, I can’t how imagine why it could be a danger to the naval Rafale … since there is no market.
BAE have done at least two full studies into the “marinisation” of Typhoon. The first of these was, to my certain knowledge, validated by the users’ Typhoon Joint Structures Team.
Why the hell Bae need a validation from the Typhoon joint structure team ?
This is far from being ‘fantasy figures’ – there are detailed drawings and carefully worked out figures (down to sink rates, proportion of carrier landings, impact on airframe life, allowable GPS timing errors (25 ms!) – everything you could think of), as the drawings (which are the tip of the iceberg) would indicate. There are detailed drawings showing four or more main undercarriage variations and the associated structural changes to the wing, for example.
So, are you implying that the navalisation is an easy task ? Because it’s the only question.
Fantasy figures
According to the “Phase 3 Eurofighter Navalisation Study (July 1998)” the weight penalty for ski jump was 340-kg and for catapault launch 460-kg.
I prefer to wait and see a real Typhoon on a CVF …. or the CDG 🙂
I know the broad costs because I’ve spoken to people who know.
God spoke.
BTW, isn’t Mr John Lake who is supposed to”know” ?
Sounds all nice on paper if you want to sell stuff. Even the Rafale M gains more than that compared to the C so…
I would take that data with more than a grain of salt.
Good point.
But Jacko the mighty doesn’t care of technical elements.
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