glitterAlso, the Typhoon Partners collectively add much more to Saudi sercurity than France does. (no offense to France)
Saudi security ?
What have you in mind exactly ?
The other partners have considerable workshare in any Typhoon order.
Could you give us the figures ?
glitterFor top gun 2, I hope Dassault would let a Rafale paint in black 🙂
glitterOh! Maybe it was Dassault that didn’t want the line open in order to be certain that the French Air Force (or their politicians!) would not be tempted to cancel part of the Rafale order for some new units of modernized M2000, right? 😉
The AdA would be the least mirage customers as long as they can get Rafale.
The F2 is rated 2,5 times better than a modern mirage.
Unless france is giving out Rafales for charity without any support and armament this budget will only fetch about 12 rafales. On the otherhand you could probably buy 18-20 sukhoi’s with everything.
To buy is something. Using them is another.
To be honest, intercept a slow tree-top level flying cessna at night, in the middle of the amazon forest,…must be a bit harder for a jet fighter to do than many people think.
Check the last picture of that page.
http://thierrymdt.rmcinfo.fr/Aeronautique/2.php
But the mirage isn’t the best plane for such very low altitude flight because of its engine.
A dual engne rafale would consumme less 😉
glitterThe Rbe2 falls perfectly into “It seemed like a good idea at the time”category & has also been described as “dead end ” technology.
You must keep in mind that the RAfale was supposed to be ready in 1996.
At that time, the versatile Rafale could use either a mecanical radar (so, no versatility anymore), an AESA radar (that would make the whole plane too expensive for our budget) or the RBE2.
Everybody knew it’s limitations but we choose it for many reasons.
So, to tell in 2006 that the RBE2 is a bad idea is akward when you still ahve so few electronic array raadr available in the world.
The prototype was bought from a US company anyhow,they probably could not unload it quick enough.
American prototype ?
The modules of the easa that flew on the rafale in 2002/2003 you mean ??
Unfortunately they threatened to withdraw support for them if we used them to suppot our committment in Vietnam somthing that has never been forgotten.
I heard about that story few years ago, and it seems that it’s has been an extremely bad moves from the french gov.
Anyway, British or US, don’t worry, should Australia be a thorn on their side and bye bye spare parts 🙂
glitterAs mentioned by Storsch ,so far less than 300 Rafales likely to be built. The problem is that it is not a “Big Deal” but a very expensive excercise in national ego
Let’s make it simple.
France paid quite a big sum of money to get a plane that is 100% what they paid for + a total comtrol over its technologies.
For much more money, you built 600 of them and each country won’t buy as much as planes as France nor get the same advantage over the technologies related to the eurofighter.
And, the good news, the more versatile RAfale is cheaper.
lets hope that they never have to go to a serious war with this plane
Because as long as a plane hasn’t been sold to a foreign country it’s a POS ?
Damn, that’s a bad news for the F-22.
it is not as well provided for in radar and avionics as the later blocks of so called older US planes & probably never will be
LEt’s make it clear, the F1 was a quick and dirty sub-rafale … but able to go toe to toe with F-16 MLU even in bad conditions.
That doesn’t sound bad.
It is now 20 years old itself so is hardly the latest gadget in the toolshed.
It has suffered the low budget of the psot cold war period, like the F22 or Eurofighter, I don’t think it’s a revelant point.
Built partly to fit on the CdeG [The Fawlty Towers of naval ships]
Your knowledge about the CdG is as impressive as for the Rafale 🙂
FA18C/Ds could have been purchased in 1998 [Last produced] very cheaply and would have flown the flag OK for a ship that is never likely to see much
Much cheaper, right, but not as good as a simple mriage 2000-5.
if any combat duty.
So, it would be a HUGE waste of money.
What’s your point ?
glitterEF2000 has a larger nose diameter than Rafale, enabling a larger radar
Could you give us the figures ?
EF2000 has more powerful engines
And bigger and heavier.
Its a flawed concept.
I can imagine that scene at Dassault Aviation, when engineers realized twenty years after the first flight that they forget to include the radar and enough fuel.
Would the rafale be able to supercruise if fitted with the Snecma M88-3? (which I thought they would be producing by now)
The M88-3 is under test for around one year but hasn’t took off yet.
glitter50 000 jobs for 72 Eurofighter ?
That’s a lot 🙂
glitterFor several reasons Gripen came out as the only platform ready in time to fully support the METEOR without further delays to the program.
To be more accurate, the french Meteor will have a head extrapolated from the MICA so that the french meteor is supposed to come a full year AFTER the “normal version”
glitterA good thing if the “normal” Meteor can be test on the rafale, since the AdA will use a Meteor with a specific head seeker and might be a bit different than the european version.
glitterim looking at some older threads and alot of people here seem to like the Rafale over the Typhoon, Gripen and even Su-30MKK/MKI, what is so special about it.
Really ? As a french poster, I find much more threads with a preference to the typhoon.
glitterAccording to unofficial sources, the target is the fourth option that you listed in your message.
but the fourth option is the most complex to grab since the details can be extremely complex. And if Tranfert of technologies are in the basket, prices would skyrocket.
Anyway, with a “basic” fourth option, I don’t think that you can get more than 12 rafale for 1 billion.
The problem is that I cannot know reliable figures for a russian complete package.
why would some one chose the first 3 options as it is incomplete to effectively operate an aeroplane. (Planes+Pilot training+ weopons+ service center). and Rafale fly away cost is $65m from french order. so easily double it for system price.
There is no relation between the fly away price and the price of the global package.
Of course you always buy the forth option but sometimes you can get a mix of anything.
For instance, the F-16 block 60 deal didn’t cover the weapons IIRC.
so the new Su-35 is less modern than the above. alteast it has the best TWR and longest range to begin with.
I find the russian cheerleaders boring.
advance composite materials that were not present in previous flankers. Su-35 is compeltely new machine from structure to FBW to cockpit. it does not share anything with previous Flankers like MKI.
I don’t want to repeat myself.
glitterI dont think dassualt can do more than 12 with a billion dollar similar to what offer to singapore. if the newer Su-35 is in contest than rafale is going to lose on technical merits also.
You must kepp in mind that the question cannot be answered.
what are we talking about ?
Naked planes ?
Planes + basic infrastructure ?
Planes + infrastructures + weapons ?
Planes + infrastructures + weapons + an agreement of technical axchange/maintenance ??
A price of 110 to 140 millions for a modern plane (F-35, Rafale or Eurofighter ..) can be a reality.
glitterPerhaps because they don’t have the information.
glitterI’d like to see an F-16 Blk 60 compared, and add in the avionics (including its superior AESA radar… ;)) 🙂
For that kind of upgrade (and price), Dassault can propose you a Rafale instead of a mirage 2000.
glitterand why they would buy russian carrier? they could go the french way like Scorpene.
The scorpène is a submarine
if it was ready they would have taken it. there is no such thing as proposing.
1) Of course it’s not yet at that moment, I wrote it yesterday. The point is that YOU said the M88-3 cannot be available before 10 years. I said that engine can be available around 2010.
2) There is such thing as proposing. I doubt that a company can have lots of products but don’t even know if there are some customers all around.
how much thrust was produced for MIG-1.42 flight.
My point: the rafale, if “underpowered” for your taste can have a smooth upgrade for it.
Your opint: The flanker has perhaps an upgrade but that hasn’t been made for it.
putting some radar modes and certifying some air to ground weopons should not take a decade.
Could you give me a link that establish that ot took a full decade ?
smooth evolution for M2k/F-16? it takes more than 5 years just to upgrade from M2K to M2K-5 (greek/uae)
5 or 10 years ? The UAE has -9 and not -5
but it takes only 6 months to upgrade Mig-29 to SMT standard.
link, sources, articles please
just look at F-16MLU for Turkey. first aircraft after 6 years.
Link, source, articles please.
u are incorrect. that MIG website is not updated.
What hasn’t been updated ?
i didnot mentioned its final version. it is old MIG-29M with TVC. not new built.
A prototype ….
i am sure ROK has time line in mind. they got F-15 way earlier with full multirole capability than only air to air version Rafale.
The F-15K was available before the RAfale Mk2, no problem but the Mk2 was still in the 2008 range, so compatible with Korean requirements.
Rafale can’t take off from IN carriers end of story. Even if it could have Su-33MKI is a better option than rafale.
I never state that the Rafale was a better choice for the IN.
About a Su-33 Mki, I’m not that sure. The rafale is an operationnal plane, I’m not sure the Su-33 can be seen as such;
the Mig-29K range is close to 2100km. 1850 is for the old Mig-29K.
“Old” Mig-29K ? What’s the new one ?
Rafale in essense has the same range as mirage2k despite larger size.
You really don’t know anything about french plane 🙂
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dassault_Rafale 1100Nm for the Rafale M
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dassault_Mirage_2000 890Nm
And for low altitude mission, I can’t even imagine :diablo:
[/QUOTE]
Atleast it can be upgraded with AESA radar in future. Does thales even have a plan for AESA?[/QUOTE]
Already answered, but that’s only a clue that the information about french planes isn’t common.
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