glitterWRONG. Britains EAP and French Rafale flew in 1986, EAP was NOTHING MORE than a Technology Demonstrator and NOT some kind of pre-prototype, as stated in volume 35 of “World Air Power Journal” page 62. The first flight of Typhoon was in 1994. Hope this clears a few things up 😀
Regards Phil.
I was talking from an aerodynamic point of view.
If Typhoon is the best of what Bae could do in 1994 😮 😮 😮
glitterWhichever high performance fighter a nation buys is incredibly high cost, flying these aircraft of any type is not cheap, countries like Korea, Japan, Singapore etc. obviously think the F15’s operating costs are acceptable given the aircrafts performance.
For Korea and Japan, it’s more for strategic reasons than for real operationnal ones.
And I don’t know what you are implying with your point about product support, US companies offer product support and upgrade packages at least as good as anybody else, and a lot better than most, and whether Europe likes it or not American defence contractors have access to far greater R&D budgets and state funded programs than any other defence contractors.
That’s my point.
As long as the UASF needs support, it’s perfect. As soon as the aircraft isn’t a first line fighter, it can be different.
You can take a look at Northrop F-5 upgrade and Mirage F1.
The RMAF will get AASM and MICA, thanks to a deal with Dassault and SAGEM.
If you want an amraam with your freedom fighter, you need an Israelis radar.
US companies provide excellent life cycle support too, I served as an engineer in the RAF and the support we had from US suppliers was first class, so I’m not sure where your view that US companies don’t care about non-US customers comes from.
You don’t understand.
The “foreign” market isn’t important because of pure numerical reasons (the f-16 being another problem).
Can you compare the american Eagle fleet with the korean one ?
Anyway, time will tell what kind of upgrade will be available for the F-15 in 2025 and 2040.
The F22 and F35 have a specific jump in capability over any current design except the F117A
Engineer in the RAF and you want to compare the F-22 and F-117 ?
what does the Rafael or Typhoon offer that a F15 can’t in the real world?
Getting back from a mission, few hours of maintenance and get back in the sky.
we’re an engineer in the RAF and you don’t know that ?
that kind of says it all about the technological capabilities of US vs. European defence contractors. The F35 offers a second genuine advantage in addition to low radar observability, it will offer a much lower cost entry into the fleet air arm club for navies wishing to fly the type of LPHD type vessels or small STOVL carriers.
I fear that the “technological capabilities” are just a sign of the gap in the budget defense, so it’s more “financial capabilities”.
The F-35 cheap price is dead in the water BTW.
glitterAbout a direct comparison of Rafale/Typhoon and F-35, don’t forget that the two first flew the first time near 1986.
glitterThe movie missed his commercial target in France (1,5millions instead of 3 millions) and unless a huge success in foreign countries and with DVD, Les Chevaliers du ciel 2 won’t be a reality.
glitterI think it is quite probable that the F15 will have superior upgade packages available than either the EF Typhhon or Rafael. For one thing the US defence budget dwarves anything in Europe and the US still has a lot of years of F15 operations
How much ?
added to the fact that some of the export customers are the countries most likely to be paying for the top end of the upgrade kits, Japan, Israel, Korea, not to mention that Israel has some true world class weapons systems optimised for use with the F15.
Countries most likely to use F-22 (Japan) or F-35 in the future you mean ?
One of the drawback of the US budget defence is that everything outside USA is not that important for american compagnies.
They can upgrade the F-15 for the USAF, but how much to upgrade the F-15K in 25 years ?
The fact that the airframe is an old design is not really a big deal, that does not affect radar and weapons upgrades and the aircrafts flight performance, payload, range etc. is still world class.
The maintenance cost + RCS are and will stay world class too.
Europe has a lot of expertise but there always seems to be endless delays, budget cuts and lack of serious political will to continue the development of cutting edge hardware.
Yes, so it’s pointless of trying to find that where they aren’t.
About the F16, the question is, what capabilities do the Rafael/Typhoon/F15 offer to customers over and above the F16 or Gripen that they actually NEED?
Nobody can tell.
glitterI wouldn’t be so sure about that? First, the Rafale is yet to find a single export order
And what ?
OSF Mk2, AESA and upgrade of SPECTRA modules are on the way.
Two evolution of the M88-2 are under test since 2005.
very short on funds for the necessary upgrades to Avionics and Engines.
The devellopment is funded for the AESA, OSF Mk2 and wouldn’t be a problem for most sub-system.
I must remind you that the Rafale was supposed to be ready in 1996 in a light version, so several systems can be easily upgrade thanks to available and mature technologies of nowadays.
About if someone will buy them, it’s another problem, the Rafale F4 for 2012 hasnn’t been finalized yet.
Also, most the Typhoon partners are also purchasing the F-35 Lightning and may find it hard to fund a major upgrade to a practically new Typhoon………
Same thing for the rafale, I can’t see these upgrades being a real burden.
And if the cost is more expensive than expected, either they can prefer to sacrifice their technological bases, either to sacrifice some MADE IN USA fighters, it’s up to them.
It shouldn’t cost that much … Meteor and CAESAR are already under development, the engines are designed to make a 15% thrust increase trivial, and conformal fuel tanks shouldn’t be too expensive; the only thing that might be tricky would be adding TVC.
About the engine, the M88 ECO is more an avolution of materials, the M88-3 has more risk germs with it.
Regardless, France desperately needs a export order for the Rafale.
One of the more famous myth in aeronautical forums.
An export order will bring a lots of fresh air, no way it’s a must-have.
That said, she will have a hard time beating out the American F/A-18E/F Super Hornet!
If TOT are still so important in that deal, unless a major iomprovement has been done in american side, the participation of LM or Boeing are only to please the USA gov.
glitterBut have you heard anything about the Aéronavale buying the CFTs for their Rafale-Ms? Since all Rafales are built with the plumbing to use CFTs, it’s just a matter of buying the tanks and I’d think the Marine would like this option?
Until now, not a single rumors about a CFT interest of the french AF or Navy even if that idea seems very interesting.
Perhaps that the second carrier with alonger deck would allow a heavier rafale to take off.
The F16 and Grippen offer a more than adequate performance for most users for a lot less money.
…
So the Rafael and Typhoon are a lot more expensive than the F16 with the F16 being good enough for most customers
It’s all about what you mean by “adequate”.
About the price, the rafale is the cheapest of the 4,5 gen fighters.
But don’t believe in miracle, a F-16 block 60, with an avionic able to go toe-to-toe with those of the Rafale is as expensive, look at the price paid by UAE.
the F15 is still very capable for those willing to pay Rafael/Typhoon prices with excellent product support and possibility of piggybacking much bigger capability improvement/upgrade programs
Do you really belive that a 30yo american design will get more upgrade than two brand new fighters in 20 years ?
at the other end the F22 and F35 offer higher capabilities
Let’s say how good the F-35 will be and keep in mind that it will take several years and all eurocanard will have good upgrade in avionics (specially for AESA).
glitter🙂
glitterYou forgot Australia and Egypt. :rolleyes:
Could you show me the epic battles won by these australian M1 ?
glitterIt’s a quite good argument. Look at Singapore and South Korea. They never operated French fighters and quickly fobbed off the Rafale in favour of the US made F-15, despite reports that the Rafale was superior.
And waht about the different countries like Switzerland or Austrlia who replace their french planes by F-18 ?
Anyway, I’m glad to see these typhoon aren’t really desired by the RAF 🙂
glitterPerhaps they start to understand that for the $$$ they are wasting into military products, they should try to get a real army and not a bunch of clowns.
glitterBecause it’ well known that the maintenance of the M1 + logistic chain is a nightmare that only the US army can afford to get.
Easy, isn’t it ?
glitterIT seems the Saudi wanted another MBT to “support” the M1 since the maintenance of the american tank is too much to handle by saudis techs 😉
glitterLeclerc is not a non-starter, though if given a choice between Abrams, Leopard 2 and Leclerc, my choice would be in that order.
In 2001, 2002, Saudi Arabia wanted to buy 300 Leclerc but the discussion hit a major problem with the AMX-30 that they wanted us to get back home.
glitterI don’t think they will acquire French fighters. They have never operated French fighters
Is it supposed to be an argument ?
Sign In
