glitterThey’re talking 24-36 aircraft.
As for alliance, they aren’t that close to France.
They’re closer to the USA, with whom they share bases (Al Udeid Air Base or As Saliyah Army Base where US has prepositioned equipment).
What is clear is that you have no idea about the relation between these two governements. For instance, I don’t think that investors from Qatar has any tax exemptions in US like what exist in France.
glitterIt has the disadvantage of the Hawk (old basic design) & no countervailing advantages. It also has serious drawbacks unique to itself. It’s built by a small company which lacks resources to develop it further, is in service with only one ar force, which selected it for entirely political reasons
Do you think it’s an issue with the only country using Rafale ? 🙂
Anyway, it seems the choice is done (but not signed yet)
http://www.lopinion.fr/blog/secret-defense/l-armee-l-air-souhaite-acquerir-vingtaine-pilatus-pc-21-1291
glitterThe jf17 has been designed from the ground up for easy maintenance and low costs to operate. Pakistan would be a reliable supplier given french systems in operation there. You coild put in a m88 even as the airframe is designed with mutiple engine options in mind. Should easily last 30 years for france.
So, an obvious very cheap chinese plane full of made in France elements ? :highly_amused:
glitterSome other less likely but interesting options include:
1. FT-7
2. K-8
3. JF-17B
Forbidden 🙂
glitterdiverting from the other thread..
France needs new advance trainers.what would be likely? what would be logical?
stay European with M-346?
go supersonic with T-50?
Mistrals for Yak-130 with Russia?
stay cost effective and go for PC-21?
trade rafale for pampa with argies?
Just for financial reason, we can say that PC-21 will be the winner here.
Let’s imagine that there is a budget to go for a totally new trainer:
– I would imagine the T-50 getting into finals, then eliminated for a stupid reasons 👿
– The choice of the Yak-130, obviously, would need first a total change of our foreign policy toward Russia, I cannot see it happen before quite some time.
– I would imagine a choice between Hawk and M-346, the latter having a slight avantage if an agreement can be reach with Singapore.
glitterAccording to Air&Cosmos journalist G. Steuer on twitter, Dassault is considering a nEUROn flight at Le Bourget.
I always heard it was forbidden for safety reason.
glitterWhat do you mean with “goal established”? That the aircraft meets the requirements as laid out in the specifications?
I should have used plural in fact because I had in mind the specification of the aircraft of course, but the industrial organization and reponsabilities sharing too.
In the last two elements, political interference are very quickly hassle before becoming a total mess for the engineers.
Btw. people keep claiming that the Rafale programme cost has grown by 4% only and I understand that this has been stated by Mr. Edelstenne (IIRC). But how does this claim match the with real numbers? In 2006 it was stated that total programme costs would be 33 bln € incl. R&D plus production of 294 aircraft. The estimate has grown by about 10 bln € ever since, how is this explained? I understand that VAT may have increased a bit, but numbers have been altered as well, production run is further stretched out and there is of course inflation. Are the figures adjusted for inflation, is that known and does the latest estimates take upgrades into account that go beyond the definitive F3 standard? These might be possible explainations for the cost growth, but are they valid?
Well, I stopped playing that game a long time ago because I don’t have time to follow those figures and check/recheck the details of the report which must explain how those figures are build.
You’re right to point that the R&D on the Rafale haven’t stopped in 2006, so is the 4% still reliable ? Personally, I don’t know and I’m not even interested. 4% or 50%, what would be the difference ?
glitterOf course, the french don’t have the same budgets as the USA, but what they did with the “little” they have shows that it is possible to do stuff on your own, and more effectively than when “pooling” resources (just look at the cost of the Typhoon related to the capabilities it has today, look at the F-35 and its delays and cost overruns, then look at the Rafale (about 4% cost overrun, which is pretty much nothing, and whose delays were the result of the governments delaying orders, not dassault’s inability to deliver) and Gripen which is also a prime example of efficient developing…
now what’s the difference between these aircraft?
the ones that cost loads of cash and are quite late in their development were all made in “cooperation” between different partners… and yet, that “analyst” considers that developing something alone won’t ever be done again…You can believe him… or look at the facts and see the reality
Be careful with the conclusion, because I have the feeling you’re heading in the wrong direction.
For me, the real issue is simply if the goal of the program is clearly established.
Let’s see:
Rafale: yes
Gripen: yes
Typhoon: No
F-35: no
Problems that plagued the A-400M devellopement can come in mind as well.
glitterFrance pushed the Rafale aggressively for the original UAE deal. A fighter that isn’t yet operational can certainly compete for orders, but the Rafale just wasn’t competitive. Even 10 years later the UAE has demanded upgrades to the Rafale in order for it to match the performance it already gets from its F-16 Block 60s.
– And we push it in an agressiv way it seems, the UAE didn’t need a brand shiny new Rafale at that time.
– The goal of those upgrades was to have a Rafale that could be, at minimum, be equivalent to their F-16, not an easy task, specially since we know for quite sometime that American AESA will come with more functions than european ones.
glitterThis purchase certainly doesn’t rule out the possibility that the UAE will go forward with a purchase of Rafales or Eurofighters, but it is certainly noteworthy that the UAE would buy more F-16s even after having had the opportunity to inspect the Rafale and Eurofighter. If they simply wished to expand their force structure they could always choose to replace 60 Mirage 2000s with 80 Eurofighters for instance. Now that they seem likely to purchase an additional squadron’s worth of F-16s I suspect at a minimum there is less urgency to replace the Mirage-2000s, and if a replacement happens the sale will likely be smaller than it otherwise would have been.
But don’t forget that:
– The weight of such a “small” contract, that can be just a political move.
– They cannot buy additionnal mirage, so going for more F-16 is the easy path.
glitterI think JSR lost the plot long ago …
Is it just me or others have the same feeling ?Cheers .
JSR is a fan of Monty Python, I cannot see another logical explanation.
glitterunfortunately … alone good faith is not enough as the past experience has shown to us. India values that we have friends as France and Russia but we know that they want their share of blood and money. We are willing to pay for that but we want more then empty promises.
Right, that request of responsability on the shoulder of Dassault sound like a threat to Dassault who MUST manage a successful ToT, or else …
For all problem(s), Dassault will be consulted and in stead of shrugging their shoulder or demanding extra money it is expected they will help HAL to fix those issues without delay. I hate it say but to remind, French will benefit from this deal for next 30-40 years, which I sincerely doubt any other nation can offer.
I don’t think it’s OT (well, it is since we’re not in MMRCA topic 🙂 ) , quite the opposite, that’s a very insteresting perspective from Indian POV, because once signed, it would be very difficult to go for plan B.
glitterIndians obviously believe they are negotiating from a position of strength, because they know that this order is absolutely vital for Dassault and the future of Rafale and they are clearly trying to exploit the situation.
They and Dassault will probably meet somewhere in the middle. Another stumbling block could be the technology transfer . I still can’t believe that Thales is willing to share the technology of SPECTRE and the brand new AESA radar .
The real question is if India would be ready to pay for such a level of ToT.
I thought that the link was perfectly obvious but this kind of post imply that it is not, so, again, if you ask a company the transfert of their most secret assets, you must PAY for that.
You must pay so much that they will be in a good position (well, more or less) to develop the next generation.
Spectra alone means billions.
glitterNot sure what all this talk about Flankers, Fulcrums, etc. is about. If Rafale deal actually fell apart the program would shift to Typhoon as the other aircraft selected by IAF with comprehensive costings and proposals.
And the discussion would fail about the same question of responsability of EADS/BAE should HAL fail his job.
If we assume that this request from India is a way to secure the ToT, the question is which competitors can produce a very high level of ToT (unless Indian changed their mind about it) and able to assume the risk of responsability OR to have the political weight to show them the finger of the middle.
Who can do that ? I would like to say: Russia but not for the good reason. 🙂
glitter(1)with all the news of UAE deal for typhoon imminent.. how did dassault blow this one since it was almost theirs to have?
(2)did Rafale not meet the requirements UAE had but Typhoon could?
British better at politicking?
(3)consistency with Saudi Arabian typhoons?
(1) UAE is famous to have extremely long list of requirements, so either it’s just a rumor, either the list has been simplified.
(2) Of course, it’s a possibility, but the previous statement from emiratis shown that the problem is certainly not technical. 😉
(3) Even if the question of Iran push again both countries together, still they arefar away from being allied.
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