glitterGlitter you said that France went on with a medium twin engined Rafale instead of a light single engined design because for at least a multirole fighter you need bigger size.
I don’t think it’s true, look at platforms like Gripen, F-16C/D, M2K versions, they are all great multirole fighters.
I seriously think France should’ve went with a rather light/medium sized single engined aircraft that would be much cheaper.
The program wouldn’t have been delayed that I don’t know if the technology would have been available at that time.
The bigger size was because the rafale is more like a fighter-bomber and as such need a really longer range than mirage or GRippen.
Anyway, you said that they are all three great multirole fighter.
Can they launch two AA misiles while tracking 2 ships and looking for a building to destroy ?
THAT’S multirole.
glitterWell, I cannot add anything more after GDL’s post.
Anyway, if Dassault must build a cheap airplane, I think that it’s the mirage who should play the basis of the prject, certainly not the rafale.
So let’s say a M88-3 engine on a rafale-like airframe but closer to the Typhoon (because that plane wouldn’t be carrier compatible) with an even more basic FBW than the 1978 mirage 2000 and whith as many af the shell component (a tactical move would include Embraer made spare parts or a strategic one with India I think).
Well, why not but after the failure of the mirage III NG, Dassault don’t want any new “cheap product”, and my descriptions sound like a grippen after all 🙂
glitterDid the ADV see some huge upgrades ?
Google is your friend.
BTW isn’t you who said that the UK spent much more money in upgrades ?
Cant France role out a cheaper version of Rafale..is it possible??
Hard to tell.
Engines: no way. The plane is so expensive that reducing the cost of engines would means more expensive to maintain or lower disponibility.
Airframes I really don’t know but it’s less and less important for the global cost.
Avionics: Well, certainly but a downgrade rafale cannot become a cheap plane I think.
On the other hand, perhaps a mix rafale airframe with mirage avionics can be possible.
glitterI is definitely an abyss for millions/billions.
That is a naughty habit since General de Gaulle to dream of “an independant defense”.
The result of this phantasy are well known : Rafale , Charles de Gaulle carrier etc…It sounds to me the joining the Euro fighter program would make much more sense (and save tax payer €).
Yes and no.
Perhaps a mix EF2000 for the AdA and F-18 for the navy would have been cheaper but with a clear industrial lost of experience and independance.
BS, Typhoon was never meant to replace the Tornado or the Harrier and they are also getting big upgrades.
Tell what aircraft the RAF is using for air defense ?
Isn’t it the Tornado ADV ?
Btw, France was part of the EF project at the beginning, but after workshare negotiations failed, France decided to go it alone.
(France wanted 50% of the total workshare, buying only 30% of the aircrafts)
Yep, I know and that was what HAnd87_5 and other french like me said since the begining, we can’t denied that.
But keep in mind that
1) the naval version would have been a great problem for the EF2000
2) When you see the troubles to work with 4 compagnies, can you imagine with 5, specially if the fifth is Dassault.
Skilled engineers, one century outdated bosses.
glitterI meant that M2k5 is small upgrade if you look into the money the french government put into the programm compared to what the UL put into their upgrades.
the reason is so obvious that I don’t know why you’re rising the problem again.
THe “UK is spending much more money than France for upgrades” = “the Typhoon is damn late”
glitterIt is cheaper – for the export customer. Nobody said something different.
Or for the “same price” you’ve got more choice, which is equivalent I think.
Dassault paying for the weapons integration ?? :rolleyes: Don´t you think that these costs will be calculated into the unit price for the customer.
I really don’t know how much it cost.
But what I know is that very old articles about the rafale said that it was supposed to be compatible with the AMRAAM in the future.
Say what you want, the numbers of M2k-5s in french service are low. If I compare it to the while fleet udates done by the british, then it is a minor thing. And we should remember that the M2k-5 upgrade was paid by Dassault and the french goverment only did buy some to increase the export chances of the M2k5.
It has nothing to do with the quality of the M2k5, which is an excellent plane just like Rafale. I wanted to point out that the Tornado has been put through a big update paid for by the british government.
The M2k has also seen an upgrade, but the development costs were largely paid by Dassault. The backing of the french government was medicore at best.
If you look at the costs of such upgrades it must be asked how many private frims can actually develop an upgrade programm without a government paying for it.
you got it all mixed up.
What are we talking about ?
The technical or strategic aspect ?
The mirage 2000-5 is a huge upgrade from a technical point of view but a small one from a strategic aspect since the rafale is coming.
glitterYou got it ! For Singapore it makes no difference wether Germany, Italy, Spain or Austria has paid for the integration of a particular weapon. They got only the advantage of many different weapons to choose from, without any additional costs.
Certainly right, even if the numbers of differenrets integration might lead to a bigger problem.
But we do agree on that, the problem is that someone said it was CHEAPER.
And the integration of AMRAAM, Sidewinder and many other weapons into Typhoon is not refused.
That’s tiresome
Let’s imagine it would not be refused for Rafale, who will pay for the integration ? Dassault, the French MOD or the customer ? 😎
LEt’s say, if needed by the French AF: MoD
For export version (AMRAAM could be a good example) Dassault
A more specific weapons: the customer.
If singapore want the typhoon + MICA who would pay for it ?
One thing I would suspect is that not only American weapons will be integrated into Typhoon, Italy and UK will shurely integrate some weapons from their stock into the JSF. For example Storm Shadow would make some sense and ASRAAM seems to be shure
Of course, that would make the JSF a better plateform.
A rather limited upgrade (mirage 2000 Mk2), don´t you think.
In france, the day Troll is friday
A rather limited number bought by the Arme de l´Air. Compare that to the Harrier, Jaguar or Tornado in british service.
Of course, it’s only for transition and I can’t see the link between the low figures of french mirage 2000-5 and how good it is.
Must I understand that the F-22 won’t be as good as the F-16 ?
Imho Rafale is still on track. I´m simply sure that 4 countries can pay (and will pay) more money for the weapons integration of Typhoon.
On the other hand, they are lagging so much that they can only fill the gap with France 😀
glitterMilitary DSPs are usually “militarized” versions of commercially available DSPs.
Yes, militarized versions.
And sometimes that means a lot.
glitterSurely it is not the cheapest way, but a very favorable way for any export customer, as the customer will be able to pick from a wide range of weapons.
So, is it cheaper or not ?
Give DAssaultThales any weapons and they can integrated them … if allowed.
Just imagine, ALARM; HARM; TAURUS; Storm Shadow, HARM, Kormoran II, Harpoon, Penguin (possible if Norway buys EF), JDAM, LGB, Brimstone, Maverik, recce pod, this free fall bomblet dispenser DWS-39 (?), …
In the end Rafale won´t match this large choice.
It will if customers ask it to.
Furthermore the bristish are know to keep therre planes up-to-date and do many upgrades to them. France is not nearly as active as the UK in that field.
Mirage 2000-5 mk2
Typhoon was simply not ready for Korea. With every week and every motnh it will close the gap to Rafale and in the end it will be ahead. Tranche 2 will make Typhoon at leat equal. Tranche 3 will take the lead.
Ahead of what ?
Do you think the rafale program is stalled ?
glitterThe point was that there will be more weapons available. It doesn’t depend on who paid for the integration.
If each nation want their own set of weapons, all nations will pay for several products of the same kind but a potential customers won’t see any difference.
And if Thales is lucky, the integration on weapons on the rafale could be easier to do.
No. It doesn’t depend on any embargo. Singapore has this weapons already or will get them together with the JSF. But they are not integrated into the Rafale.
Because the USA refuse to let Dassault integrating them.
Don’t you remember ? AMRAAM, South Korea, Rafale …..
The British and the Italians will operate the JSF/Typhoon combo as well. Germany uses many U.S. made weapons.(Harm, Harpoon, etc.) How many are in the inventory of France ? The only U.S. weapons I heard of that are cleared so far for the Rafale are Paveway II & III.
But hey, that cost money all that. so, the rafale must be cheaper ? :p
glitterThey know how to use them, design them, design around them, and even have foundries that make them. Electronics is a highly dual technology now, just like CPUs, there is no clear dividing line in the DSPs used for military and civilian applications. .
In one word, NO
glitterFor Typhoon 4 nations will pay the integrations work. For Rafale one.
Your state in your example that each country as their own weapons
ASRAAM-IRIS-T
Taurus-Storm shadow
That’s not exactly the cheapest way to do it.
Mirage 2000D was made with AG in mind. 🙂
Before all, the mirage 2000D is a mirage 2000.
Singapore maybe a chance, but I would rather go for Typhoon, since it will be aible to carry the same weapons as JSF
The rafale too if the US lift the embargo toward the rafale.
Rafale has only one advantage over Typhoon, and that is the carrier variant.
That’s the only one ?
I fear that Koreans officers would disagree with you here.
glitterI’m sure it has DSPs. Who does not? The place is overflowing with them. DSPs are important for wireless communication, and China, one of the biggest manufacturers of celphones now, would use tons of them.
YEah, right, I’m sure that exactly the same kind of product.
glitterThe French have been going down a single engined light multirole fighter pretty much since MIII yet now they switch to a medium twin engined Rafale, I wonder why? .
For a multi role fighter, you need a bigger plane (compare a mirage and a rafale) so more thrust.
But France isn’t America so a single powerful engine would be too expensive while 2 smaller engines can be exported.
It’s too expensive of a beast just like the Typhoon.
Show me a 4,5 or 5th gen cheap fighter.
let me explain.
Look at AA stuff
Rafale : Mica, Magic, Meteor
Typhoon, Sidewinder, ASRAAM, IRIS-T, AMRAAM, Meteor.
The typhoon was a pure AA fighter at first.
Typhoon will benefit from the fact that every partner nation will want to integrate their stuff. .
Which will cost a fortune.
Compare a Mirage 2000D to a Tornado and tell me which can carry a wider range of a-g weapons. In th end the same will happen to Typhoon.
The tornado was made with A-G in mind, not the mirage.
glitterRussians use C++, the French might be using either Pascal or Modular Pascal (Modula?).
Pascal ? No way. C++ and ADA I think.
About the processor, IIRC Thales develloped a brand new chip of 1Gflop for the rafale, butI heard it years ago, I don’t know if the project has been successfull.
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