glitterOriginally posted by AIAS
I have a bad feeling that the HAF will take the Rafale at the end….
the question is “HAve the conservators said anything about the Typhoon in the HAL ?” ??
glitterfrom greeks posters, any news ???
glitterOriginally posted by Vortex then again i wouldn’t expect certain Europeans to under stand such a foreign culture anyways.
From an american, it’s an insult 😉
Originally posted by Vortex Look at the F15I? What about the F15I? .
the “made in USA” F-15I without Israelis upgrades is a downgrade F-15.
Originally posted by Vortex
In fact the Israelies would want more F15Is instead of F16Is simply because of range
Yes yes, again the range/payload problem.
But would anyone could tell me why with these 2 important points, sukhoi have been kicked out ?
glitterOriginally posted by Vortex
you know…all of this is very ironic. You want to talk about corruption? Let it be known as a fact that it was the officers involved with the Dassault proposal that was found by the South Koreans to be involved in bribery.
1) DAssault haven’t enything in that “bribe”
2) The “bribe” was supposed to be as high as 5000$. Only a moronic F-15 cheerleader can believe more than 3 second about a bribe.
3) The korean gov didn’t investigat about another bribe (of several millions) about Boeing.
Originally posted by Vortex
The so called public domain “experts” in Korea even claim that the radar, APG63V1 is “APG63” is even older than the “APG70”
It’s no use to talk about that, SK haven’t buy it, so the MAIN arguement about the F-15 K is out of question.
Originally posted by Vortex
therefore Americans are selling crap for a high price,
If you don’t know that (well, not exactlu craps but downgrade stuff) not only your skills in geopolitic can’t match those of a snail but you don’t know much in aircraft too.
Look at the F-15I for exemple.
Originally posted by Vortex and the usual leads to “political” pressure.
I fully understand why Korean citizens don’t like to see that they can’t even choose freely what aircraft for their AF.
Originally posted by Vortex Also, some would say “oh it’s not even AESA” with an insinuation of Americans refusing to sell them the “good stuff”….and this leads to further propaganda of “they don’t even see us as equals…these patronizing Americans”. Again, it is a fact that the “APG63V2” was offered and even promoted and recommended but the Koreans don’t want to buy it because of cost and they don’t need it for a mainly strike aircraft.
I said that they won’t buy it, but not because they don’t think that Korea “deserve” it.
Just that, for now, american AESA are damn expensive. why ?
Because it has been made and built for the USAF, an AF with a limitless budget.
We’ve got here a weakness of buying american products.
If your army don’t work in the same way and with high budget, they are useless (with the main exception if the F-16) like M-1 in Egypt or Saudi Arabia.
Originally posted by Vortex
What Americans told the Koreans is that we may not be able to or want to integrate American systems on a foreign equipment. Something wrong there?
From a juridical point of view, not at all.
From a technical point of view “well, since our F-15 is totally outdate, we’re going to bother the comeptition so that our plane won’t appear too bad”
Originally posted by Vortex then would you argue for Boeing based on the fact of American commonality, the availability of everything asked in the proposal NOW, the no extra expense needed for integrating American systems,
In europe, the USA sold to several AF F-16 or F-18 to replace mirage III or F1.
So that argument is crap and you know it.
Originally posted by Vortex
and the fact that the US is spending Billions of dollars annually NOW on equipments in S.Korea (nevermind the Korean war some 50 years ago, too old, who cares….),
Sorry man, the korean governement said that the competition was FAIR.
Your argument shows that for you, the competition MUST be legitimatly UNFAIR.
thanks for your vision of how the world should work.
On the other hand, anybody (but few whinners) would have been ok with a clear “OK, we’re going for the F-15 because in case of war, we MUST work with the USAF” or a reference to the korean war.
Originally posted by Vortex we did have another two wars that provided even more data for Boeing to promote their plane.
Versus countries without AF ?
Well, it fit well with North Korea I think 😀
glitterOriginally posted by ELP
I would. I want to see something fly and do. Not go over budget and still not have stuff figured out. A concept demonstrator flew.. Hmmm a real jet hasn’t flown yet. Of course we still have the F-18E/F. The silence of it’s ability to compete is deafening.
OK, I understand your point.
The problem is that kind of pure “technical” point of view can put your country in a world of hurt because you can’t project you enough in the future.
Originally posted by Sauron
Contrast that with the Rafale which no one seems to want to buy
1) You were talking about that the Super Hornet is used everyday by the USN but why don’t you said that the French navy use the rafale every day too ?
2) No one buy it but several AF said that’s a very good aircraft, not like the Superbug that Singapor wouldn’t want in their AF.
Originally posted by Sauron
The Rafale Was, and Is and Will be resticted to the air to air role for the time being.
Problem with English ?
glitterOriginally posted by sharmaji
Je ne savais pas que le Rafale F1 pouvais utiliser des bombes laser?I always thought that the Tranche1 was strictly A2A.
For the simple reason that it wasn’t a F1 but one of the several test bed for the F2.
Do you really belive that the RAfale can’t launch a bomb ????
Originally posted by Camaro
they (the french) call OMNI-ROLE,
When Dassault met marketing …..
glitterOriginally posted by ELP
Define “pricey”. Paying for an aircraft that has no proof of REAL all weather PGM ability at demo time is expensive. It’s two years later and the Rafale and EF2000 camp is still way slow in fielding A2G stuff that should have already been done. Lets hope they win this new deal. If they don’t, that is an aweful “expensive” way to learn ( twice ) that the jets should have been ready to demo all weather ( inexpensive ) PGMs like AASM at customer decision time.
ELP
http://zoulous.free.fr/news/news.htm
Jeudi 23 Novembre 2000
RAFALE : Coréens à Istres
C’est dans la plus grande discrétion qu’une équipe de pilotes et officiers de la Corée du Sud sont venus sur la base d’essais d’Istres pour évaluer le Rafale, candidat à l’équipement de la RoKAF face au F-15, Typhoon et autre Su-37. Les pilotes du pays du Matin-Calme ont été très impressionnés par la maturité du système d’arme qui leur a permis de mettre au but deux bombes guidées laser en condition opérationnelle. Un petit exploit qu’est encore loin de pouvoir réaliser le rival européen du Rafale.
😀
so, but according to you, at time demo, an aircraft must be fully ready ?
You mean that these countries who bought the F-35 are totally wrong and should resign ?
:rolleyes:
glitterOriginally posted by Shep
surly the South Koreans understand that when, and not if they go to war with the North
Ouch, we’ve got an Oracle on the board.
So tell me
Will Dassault win the Brazilian deal ?
Will Dassault win the Singaporian deal ?
Will Kerry be the next president of the USA in 2004 ?
When the internet get rid of ppl talking about things that they don’t understand ?
glitterRe: Re: Re: Re: F-16 Block-60 a White Elephant?
Originally posted by ELP
I can think of a couple (below) If anything the newer engine should be more economical ( very very small mod’s over time ) Plus with PW and GE at each others throats to compete if one slips up the other is there to under cut it.
You’re more or less wrong on that.
I know that GE and PW are clearly above everyone else (including RR and Saturn) but they are using technology, not magic.
Newer engines are really REALLY powerful but are more expensive.
glitterOriginally posted by sharmaji
I believe tha I read that the Rafale edged out the F-15K by a factor of 1.1% in the first round of competition. This is why France is now offering the F3 tranche version of the Rafale to Singapore.
the mk2 offered to SK is superior to the F3 (AESA and M88-3 engines).
About teh F-15 K, I heard that Korean might choose a non-AESA radar because the american technology is still VERY expensive.
glitterOriginally posted by SOC
I dunno, it might make more sense to have only two main suppliers. Less money would need to be spent on maintenance and logistics if there’s more fleet commonality.
But if India can replace mig 23 and 27 by a mirage it would be a huge improvement.
Originally posted by SOC
Personally I think it makes more sense to go for the MiG-29M2 as the airframe and systems are nearly identical to the MiG-29K they’ll be getting.
Anyway, won’t India upgrade their mirage to -5 standard ?
glitterTo add something from the SOC’s message, the 2000-5 is a A2A fighter :d
glitterOriginally posted by Distiller
Is that the same French Mirage 2k shot down at Pale on 30Aug1995 by Serbs (I suppose IFF didn’t work)?.
Do you know two different planes called “mirage 2000” ?
Originally posted by Distiller
The only loss during “Deliberate Force”, despite them only flying only 8.1% of all combat sorties
the question here is are you just saying something wrong without knowing it, or are you lying ?
Originally posted by Distiller
and resulting in record loss rate of 25% of all French Mirage 2k involved in that operation?
http://www.defense.gouv.fr/ema/forces/operations/europe/ex-yougoslavie/kosovo/ops_alliees/forces_alliees.htm
1 mirage out of 23 is 25% ?
Originally posted by Distiller
And do you mean the same 12 Mirage 2k (commanded by Col. Jean-Pierre Job, who was promoted to BGen just for transfering his jets to Arabia w/o losses)
Obviously, with that new statement, the answer of my former question is “You were lying”
Originally posted by Distiller
Awh yes, that is real combat experience and that is a true markstone of the capabilities their manufacturers claim for those ever so advanced jets. :D)
If you don’t know the militray history of Dassault …………..
Originally posted by Distiller
The CSIS on the Kosovo air campaign in 1999:
what’s the relation with the difference between a 2000C and a 2000 mk2 ??
But the conclusion of that article should be:
Our 400 billions of dolars army is more effective than 15 Air Forces with a budget of 200billions.
Quite an achievement according to me 😀
glitterOriginally posted by sharmaji
The pros for the MiG-29 are that the IN will be buying it anyway,
Because Russia make them buy it.
Originally posted by sharmaji
and many sub systems may find commonality with the MKi assembly line, hence ease of maintainance.
Are you really sure of that ?
Between a Sukhoi with lots of Indian, French and Israelis equipement and a russian Mig, common points shouldn’t be that usual.
Originally posted by sharmaji
I think that the IAf wants the MIrage but under Russian pressure, the Gov is looking at the cheaper MiG-29 .
bad arguments I think.
The indian gov can replace the Russian-French relations by a French-american, French-british, american-chinese relations with things would get nasty.
India has $$$, it’s India who can pressure Russia the most.
glitterRe: Re: F-16 Block-60 a White Elephant?
Originally posted by ELP
The F-16 is cheap to operate, Just as a Mirage2000
I may be wrong but I always heard that newer F-16 are more expensive to operate, specially with these very VERY high trust engine.
And I think that the block 60 is definitively not cheap to maintain.
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