RoovialkBill Sweetman asks my kinda question:
http://aviationweek.com/blog/so-what-took-f-22-target-photo
If the target was hot enough to warrant a strike by an F22, then what was flying around filming it before and after?
Alternatively, the target wasn’t that hot and they just found something for an F22 to bomb….
I would say a drone conducted pre and post strike assessment.
RoovialkA three way deal between Japan to supply India and Australia with advanced submarines would make things tough for China. And I am sure that at this point with the shenanigans of China in the South and East Seas many Asian countries would welcome China having feelings of encirclement.
Throw Vietnam in the mix and update SEATO and China really has something to think about
RoovialkI think the issue is not quality control in the production line. The issues are the problems in developing new engines, new technologies, new alloys.
Exactly! The ADVENT family of engines is the new standard that China must meet. Else China will always be steps behind
http://www.geaviation.com/military/engines/advent/
[ATTACH=CONFIG]231732[/ATTACH]
The adaptive cycle engine is building on decades of military and civilian jet engine research. Innovative architecture shifts air flow between the core, the main bypass, and a third stream to achieve thrust, optimal performance, and fuel efficiency.
RoovialkThe above was taken verbatim from Collins and Erickson’s 2011 article. Good piece overall but still 2011 and they had no idea of the numbers of J-11Bs that had since come out fully documented by regiments.
BTW, you should at least attribute them if you going to cut and paste.
I did in a later post. In any event you will see that I am in good company in pointing out the issues facing Chinese engine development.
How much is a “ton” of money? Collins and Erickson noted an investment of “US$1.53 billion into jet engine research and development over the next 5 years” beginning in 2011.
That’s a pittance when the PRC’s investment in high speed rail was $90B in 2009 alone.
China rarely spends much on military items especially in comparison to commercial infrastructure. You don’t get much return on military spending ;which is why China’s nuclear arsenal is very small at less than 1000.)
What will really drive Chinese investment beyond the pittance put into engines is the possibility of saving trillions with a homegrown high bypass for passenger and freight liners that China needs in the year coming up.
With the WS-20 in testing, it seems they are well on their way.
The key word is ‘seems’. Objective results are what matters. What information can you provide on the current state of Chinese engine development?
Roovialk@ Roovialk !
Otherwise You speak of reliable sources and recent reports (#) … could You please provide a link for that ??
Deino
In many of these news reports you must read between the lines to get an accurate picture of the state of Chinese engine developments. This is not just a design issue, it is related to how the Chinese design and manufacture things. China seems to have this tendency to cut corners regardless of the outcome.
It seems that there is no problem developing one off custom engines but the problem arises maintaining series production and the quality control associated with series production. China is searching high and low for solutions to the continuing reliability issues and quality issues facing Chinese engines. Even the Russians are having problems with their engine technology as witnessed by the recent T-50 engine fire. Developing a modern jet engine is difficult when you do not have a history grounded in such things
The following reference is a good starting point for state of Chinese engine development. Many good sources are referenced in the report. I will post more later. Hope you find this useful.
Other good snap shots of Chinese engine development are some of the methods their industries are considering for bringing engine production quality up to western standards. For example China is looking hard at printing jet engine parts using 3D printers with the hopes that this new technology can solve some of their quality control issues
“As the world’s largest manufacturing country, the development of 3D printing technology is important to China. China believes that 3D printing technology will promote the upgrading of the aircraft industry.”
http://www.scmp.com/news/china/article/1248385/3-d-printers-help-china-jet-development-take
RoovialkChina is attempting to manufacture super alloy turbine blades but continues to suffer reliability and quality problems. Tracking China’s supplies of rhenium — a rare metal that increases the temperature-resistance of turbine blades — is an indication of China’s progress in designing and producing an engine that can handle higher internal temperatures, for increased performance and durability.
However, a comprehensive analysis by experts from the China Gas Turbine Establishment, which played a major role in designing the WS-10 engine, still complains about engine reliability and other persistent problems. And this is after China has dropped a ton of money on domestic engine development.
If China is having trouble at this level of engine development how can they expect to compete with the next generation of so called “adaptive cycle” engine prototypes being developed in the west today?
RoovialkYour best bet is the answer from the author who pretty much wrote the definitive book on Chinese military aviation in our generation — not the news from the so-called intel expert who didn’t know about the 300+ WS10As currently installed on frontline units.
The best information coming out is that Chinese aviation is still having trouble maintaining quality control and reliability with their domestic engines. Reports continue to surface that Chinese manufacturers still have problems producing high quality turbine blades. And blades must still be imported from Russia.
Going beyond generic responses can you shed light on these persistent problems?
RoovialkPinkov is an idiot with zero credibility on China matters.
Point taken. Is there any creditable information you can share on status of the WS-10A family of engines?
RoovialkMoving on, what light can you shed on this story? Looks like that engine issue for Chinese aircraft has still not been resolved.
“…Engine issues mean China can’t power J-15, J-16 fighters
China is unable to produce advanced fighters such as the J-15 and the J-16 in large numbers because it lacks the proper engines to power the aircraft, according to the Moscow-based Military-Industrial Courier on Sept. 8.
According to Kanwa Defense Review, a magazine operated by military analyst Andrei Chang, also known as Pinkov, China is not even capable of producing J-11B fighters due to problems with Shenyang Liming Aircraft Engine Company’s WS-10A engine. Similar problems led the People’s Liberation Army Navy to cancel their plans to install the WS-10A in the J-15, a carrier-based fighter designed to serve aboard the Liaoning, China’s first aircraft carrier.
Both the PLA Air Force and Navy Air Force have asked to replace the WS-10A with the more reliable Russian-built AL-31F engines, the magazine stated. China is unlikely to get enough AL-31F engines to power all of its J-15 and J-16 fighters when production starts on the aircraft however. The only option left for China is to stop producing more advanced fighters until it is capable of designing the engines the aircraft need.”
From China Times 09-09-2014
Sources from the Chinese aviation industry told the Military-Industrial Courier that the PLA is losing its patience with the WS-10A engines. Without proper competition among state-run engine producers, the source said that China is unable to design the engines it needs to power its new aircraft. The Central Military Commission of the Communist Party of China suggested that the PLA Air Force use domestic engines anyway to boost the economy.
RoovialkIf the deaths occurred several years ago why is the information only being released now?
RoovialkI guess you missed the ‘rapid’ part of ‘rapid iteration’. China will run America down in most if not all technology fields by 2030, and not look back.
Patents filed by residents are a useful leading indicator of domestic technology trends. In the 1980s the US:China resident patent filing ratio was >15:1 in favour of the United States; by the mid-1990s that ratio had shrunk to 10:1, and 6:1 by 2000. By 2005 it was a mere 3:1 and in 2009 China overtook the United States in resident patent filings for the first time. Fast-forward to 2012, the latest year for which data is available, and China now has a 2:1 advantage in resident patent filings over the United States, a lead that China will only extend in future. American nationalists have a rough few decades ahead.
It would be helpful if you explained the relevance of patent filings to mastering carrier operations. How is something as benign as writing up patent paperwork in the same conversation as standing on a dangerous rain swept flight deck with aircraft taxiing all around you?
RoovialkNo shortcuts learning the operational lessons of combat tempo operational deployment Rii. No matter what level of ubermenchen you ascribe to the Chinese or how much ‘missile gap’ you want to confidently predict. The fact is they have to work up their own operational routines and those routines advise and incorporate into the next design.
The best China can aim for for is, in the next 15yrs, to expand its STOBAR fleet with another couple of hulls. That and having a CVN at or near maingate and ready to move into production. Any more than that is rushing the fences with no clear requirement to do so.
Given a need for a whole new support type to be developed to equip a CVNs decks plus a need to bring SSN tech up to NATO 3rd gen standard, to give an aggressive postured Chinese carrier group all-aspect coverage, a more tempered approach is realistic.
A reasonable assessment.
RoovialkOn-topic: I expect that China’s progress in carriers and carrier aviation will resemble its progress in other fields: rapid iteration that constrains risk at each step.
Meanwhile the world continues to roll on. Time waits on no man or any society.
RoovialkYou sound positively giddy about the revelation Roovialk.
We all can agree on one thing: The Chinese carrier program has gone stagnant since the first of the year. Many have attributed this to a lack of aircraft, (J-15), needed to carry out flight operations. However you do not need aircraft to refine deck crew procedures and the PLAN has not shown signs of working on those. Carriers require top notch aircrews and deck crews to achieve proficiency.
Both the Indian Navy and Royal Navy have inducted new carriers into their fleets. It will be interesting to see the road these two navies take to achieve operational success.
RoovialkBy China’s own admission they are using the US Navy as the template for their progress in carrier operations. And it is not speculation that the PLAN has slowed their carrier aviation program to a snail’s pace as of late. Over time the reasons for this slowdown will be revealed. I look forward to seeing how this works out.
These deaths could be the first reveal of trouble in the program.
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