BlackcatK here is one good video , of the Gorshkov deal from the Russian news outlet. It shows the Sergie’s press briefing/conference, the Gorshkov with her men, INS Viraat, Harrier and in the last shot some impressive display by Mig-29K. The file size is 3.09MB.
Its worth the download, i don know if u guys have already seen it, if not, u can do it now 🙂 …… But can someone help as to how to convert asf, wmv, rm files to mpg or things like that???
also, expecting someone to translate whats said in that news.
BlackcatApparently it was, on the MiG-31M at least!
That was fine Sean … good info.
and here really BAD news for all ANTI-RUSSIANS …. hope this trend continue and enlarge in the years to come.
Russia to Buy More Arms Than It Sells for First Time in Decade
Bloomberg
Russia, whose army struggled to survive after the Soviet Union collapsed in 1991, will buy more arms than it sells this year for the first time in a decade as it seeks to modernize its military.
Russia will spend 188 billion rubles ($6.8 billion) on arms this year, compared with the $5.1 billion it earned from arms exports last year, Defense Minister Sergei Ivanov said today in the government’s official newspaper. He didn’t give comparative figures.
Russia is rearming its troops to give them “only the latest arms realistically needed to provide security and parry real, not mythical, threats,” Ivanov said. “First of all is the fight against terrorism.”
Russia blames Chechnya, a landlocked region between the Caspian and Black seas that borders Georgia, for most of the terrorist attacks it has suffered since 1999, when Russia sent its army into the rebellious republic for the second time in four years. Rebel leaders such as Shamil Basayev have taken responsibility for some of the attacks, including the Beslan hostage-taking in September that left at least 339 dead.
Ivanov said Russia probably won’t be able to begin withdrawing its troops from Georgia, which borders Chechnya, before 2010 because it needs “at least four years” to build the infrastructure needed to relocate its military bases there.
NATO Secretary General Jaap de Hoop Scheffer said April 21 that Russia had to withdraw its military forces from the former Soviet republic, calling the measure essential to peace in the region and a requirement under international agreements.
No country has more advanced nuclear weapons than Russia, which is now working on developing “modern arms systems,” Ivanov said. “None of our partners or allies knows, or will know, about them until they are tested.”
Russia’s armed forces aren’t “setting aggressive tasks,” Ivanov said. “We should confidently defend our territory and the territories of our allies, in line with those obligations that we have.”
BlackcatUnfortunately this is not effective against the F-22, where it would take thousands of frequencies across several RF bands. This is what Skunk works releast about the F-117, way back in the late 1980’s.
are u standing by that 1000 frequencies that u mentioned that might be needed to track down the F-22???
The B-1 case was also accurate as I explained in another post! Its RCS is 0.0001m² or, microns squared in reflectivity!
well don know abt that, but this has been also been said …. another stunt for the B-1B, whose real figures came to 1.8/1 over the B-52.
The radar signature is utterly inadequately reported.
Only a single data number is provided to congressional committees and the GAO—the average radar signature in the level forward direction within 20 degrees of the nose, presumably to enemy fighter radars. In the B-1B reporting fiasco, the 100/1 signature advantage over the B-52 became a real 1.8/1. One cannot design an aircraft to simultaneously hide from low and medium frequency ground radars and from high frequency airborne fighter radars. Properly, all the data should be portrayed and reported—for all azimuths, for all “latitudes,” and for all radar frequencies. Single data points constitute lying by omission and gross
BTW, whats the RCS of the B-52???
In correct! The F-117 was tested again all the Soviet radar the USA has as well as French and British systems. Over Bagdad, the F-117 faced the most dense radar system in the world. There were Soviet-built Tall King early-warning radar sites along the border. This is the primary used today for Russian Air Defense! After that the USA’s I-HAWK, French radars as well as dozens of Russian radars for SAM sites. None of them detected the F-117.
Today’s F-117 is as advanced beyond what was flown in the PGW#1 as the F-15A is from the F-15C!
The help of the Israelis in securing radars as well as the US buying Russian equiptment on the open market. Just like in 1994 when a “private firm” (a CIA front company?) purchased two Su-27’s and they were delievered by An-124’s, to an area that was sandy (like Nellis AFB?)!
I am quite sure the Russians have had many opportunties to examine first hand American weapon systems. When North Viet Nam unified the country, lots of American equiptment was left there.
and do u really think that none of those sams and the radars were compromised?? …. and more likely US have most of the Russian systems which make them do better against such systems on the field and such acquisictions have helped a lot, not to leave behind the Isreali contribution that might have been there in compromising the systems.
An F-117 was in between two groups of two aircraft each, one pair F-15C’s and the other pair MiG.-29’s. The F-15 knew the F-117 was supposed to be near which is why it was urgent for them.
The F-15’s fired Slammer missiles at the MiG.’s when they were ten miles apart. In between the two groups and just 2,000 feet lower was the F-117. He was also 3 miles from the F-15’s which made him around 7 miles from the MiG.’s. The F-117 pilot watched the engagement and nobody detected the F-117!
that doesn’t help much, as the MiGs might have been concentrating on the F-15s from a longer range and that became more focused when it came nearer …..not to mention the pathetic radar most of u guys credit the MiG-29s with ….
Fans of Soviet/Russian equiptment cry the blues about how less competent other operators of their equiptment are and that “they” would do a
better job. It seem that way when the Israelis shot down five Soviet “INSTRUCTOR PILOTS” in one afternoon!
We don’t need to discuss in depth, where MiG.’s and Su-27’s have met in combat with several aircraft on both sides and they retreat with no kills. This the war where the Su-27’s have six kills against MiG.-29’s.
America does not need to worry as long as we have aircraft like the F-15’s or F-16’s. The only American aircraft the MiG.-29 has killed was a Cessna by the Cuban AF!
again, that shows, that w/o any difference in any level seniority level, anyone wud like to harp on these immature stuff like scores ….. fully ignoring the overall situation and the intergration that each side might have got.
I suppose I should have worded my statements more carefully. When I said tracked, I meant as in a lock-on. I’ve never heard any indication that the Serbs actually locked on the aircraft in a traditional sense. The F-117 was indeed painted by the radar (so the RWR in the Nighthawk picked up the signal), and using the timing of NATO strike packages among other things (other aircraft being in the sky, etc.), the Serbs knew they had a -117, and as such a barrage of missiles was fired with minimal guidance (effectivelly ballistically). In the end, they still got lucky. If NATO had used more variety in their timing, altitudes, etc. then that F-117 would likely have never been downed. The F-117 is not a perfect airplane, but it’s still a lot more difficult to shoot down than anything else flying except for the Raptor and B-2. I’m not making any of this up ink. I’m basing it on the various accounts I’ve read of the incident.
hahaha …what a pun, i though someon earlier mentioned abt the timing and stuffs like that :p … its really pity guys …
You’re forgetting one thing. Within the first few hours of any conflict against the US, those ground based radars aren’t going to be there anymore. :diablo:
and u r expecting that it wud be the blockbuster Iraq of 91, which at the best had the best of the compromised systems …
Sorry, PII, but you’re violating etiquette now. On this board, only Russian fighters are allowed to be credited with paper systems and weapons when comparing combat capabilities. 😉
Nope dear, on this board, the SCORES is what count and anything which don have a SCORE to backup its book is utter crap, get the fact real good Meat.
Never been out to Nellis AFB or the NTS, have you? There are more Russian radar systems out there than some Russian client states have.
And that slwo tell as to how the US can do better against the Russian system during their engagements with other countries, something which allmost all have been ignoring too well to suit their arguments.
BlackcatThe Mig-31M is not in service Einstein. And even if it were, just because a thing is designed to do something does not mean it can. The Mig-29 was designed to deal with the American -teen fighters and they kick it’s ass on a regular basis.
Oh really??.. u only figured it out only now???….. and do u seriously beliebe that by the time (if at all) the scenario comes when these two will meet, Raptor will be what the Raptor is now and MiG-31/MiG-29/Su-27 etc etc wud be just what they are now???… thats really immaturity …
And that’s based on your extensive knowledge of what? There is nowhere written in stone that the F-22 HAS to fly around at supersonic speed, it just has the option when it needs to. Nor does it HAVE to fly at high altitude. You DO know we’re not talking about the SR-71 don’t you?
So wud u be telling as to what wud be their mission range of flight , as per Vortex, the best aerodynamically speed for the F-22 is at M1.2, and what does it means??… ok say its for an interception, and then faster when exiting, maybe u can enlighten as to what was the speed when the F-22 took out all those F-15 w/o a loss …. that may help a bit more in analysing as to how the Raptors are gonna fly.
ANY target can be difficult for AMRAAM if the geometry is right just as any target can be a piece of cake if the geometry is right. You really don’t have a friggin’ clue what you’re talking about do you?
and that can be same for others too..
Wow after reading this rather ridiculous thread I can say I’m simply in shock. First off let me point out to the person who brought up the F-117 and SA-3 incident. At no time, did the Low Blow radar ever pick up that F-117. The Serbs had figured out NATO flight patterns, altitudes, and times they would be arriving. They knew when to start shooting, and it so happened an F-117 was caught in the blast radius of an inactive (i.e. it wasn’t tracking) SA-3. The missiles were fired ballistically. The Iraqis did it during the ’91 Gulf War, and the Serbs did it during Allied Force because they knew like the Iraqis did if the radar was to be one for more than a few moment then they would get a HARM or ALARM in the fact. That incident has nothing to do with the F-117 being easily detectable, etc, etc.
probably that comfirm that Serbs were indeed genious compared to the dumb arses that were operating the F-117. It also, shows that for shooting down the F-117, what an AD force need to be patient and timing and no radars. Thats simply grrr8 opening up from You
Now, as far as this MiG-31/ F-22 business is concerned I don’t really understand why we’re comparing two aircraft with different missions either, but by the same token I’m rather shocked to learn that apparently the Russian air defense system is infallible and in fact the MiG-31 is more than enough to counter the F-22.
And ur fully ignoring what wud have been the ground reality and theatre if at all such a meeting was to take place … but no surprise, as its usual from u to ignore what does not suit ur views … so go ahead, u can make more claims.
Apparently us yanks have wasted our money when something that’s more than 20 years old can defeat it. 🙂
An earlier awakening up is always better than being tooo late 😉
Oh, and since we’re using the MiG-31M (that’s not in service) with the R-37 (that’s not in service), go ahead and add the IRST to the F/A-22 as well as the AIM-120D (both are which are to be added and I might add with a much higher probability than the MiG-31M and R-37 entering service). Now how does our battle shape up? 🙂
Now, i guess no one used the R-37M or any of that sort as the base system for the MiG-31, it just crept in and thats it ….but wud be rather good to add it if that suits the views and the time frame for the same. Then we might also have to look into the modernisation that might also gtinto the Russian AF & AD units.
i think he means that the MiG-25 has the same trick as the MiG-31.. and that is to run the hell away 😮
I guess, the supercruise for the F-22 was said to be exactly for that for running like hell, more efficiently 😀 :p
The Serbs never tracked that F-117. They knew the timing of NATO strike packages, and during one of the time frames they knew NATO jets would be overhead they began to ballistically fire their SAM’s, setting the fuses to explose at certain altitudes, like flak guns in a sense. They also fired their normal AAA, and as such an F-117 was in the wrong place at the wrong time when the SA-3 went off. The SA-3 is a huge missile so you can imagine the blast radius is quite large. This Iraqis did similar things during the ’91 Gulf War.
again very funny argument, so what do someone need to track and shoot down the much talked abt fearsome Nighhawk …… just some plain logic and better timing and patience :p …. hey hey .. but American public don need much things other than that to be convincied …so no probs, who are we to argue.
Blackcatmore ironically, your “quote” have so many inaccuracies ……….. .The lessor known factor is the Velocity component. This implies that one needs to know the D/L as a function of the velocity (meaning you need to have some flight D/L curves at different thrust settings), so it’s tied to the engine also, not simply just the TSFC.
First of all I don know what u r saying, most likely for my wrong posting for ur quote, which i took wrongly as ur doubt as to if the MiG-31s have that internal fuel for that kind of meaniful mission radius …. so by bad day tat i quoted something and replied for something else. And i don know what ur talkig to me, as i never claimed what u r saying, if u like, u argue with ur AF personnel who wrote it. So maybe a part of showoff as to what all u know :rolleyes:
Now why does the the F22 want to supercruise? The USAF wants a very fast supersonic accelerating fighter, not the top speed, without the all showing/telling AB.
Yeah and who argued against that it cant’ i did noy, did i???…. as for the MiG-31, it do that cruising with its AB and that speed is Mach 2.3+ for that 700Km interception range, where as the max attainable speed is Mach 2.8 + which means that the range wud be low atb max sped, so its mostly M2.4 that MiG-31s go for their max supersonic interception range and quoted for the MiG-31 as a mission range of 700Km @ M2.4.
Mind you the level of thermal imaging technology in the US isn’t that bad either…this should suggest that the AB component enhance the IRST detection range dramatically enough that the supercruise capability is deemed an important requirement to the USAF, or else just blast away with the AB.
no one claimed it was any pathettic, as u want to imply, and simply don get ur point as to what u want it to be brought in. And if u r connecting that to the F-22 IRST then fine, but then my argument have been that even if the F-22 is to get the MiG-31 with its Radar and even IRST at a very long range, it cant fire untill its within the Raptors missile range.
The US can built a plane with more fuel fraction than the Mig31, one word, Blackbird. It flies farther, higher, faster than the Mig31. But in no way would i say a Blackbird (in the YF12 format) can shoot down an F22. In almost all cases it can’t. I have heard that the optimum speed (implying range) of the F22 is something like M1.2. That’s when its aerodynamically most efficient, just slightly after the transonic bump.
So wat, its never been a ‘regular’ fighter and it needs some special care for its flights and their pilots, a thing that seperates the MiG-25/31 with almost a similar capablity inside a regular/normal a/c frame.
Yeah as u said, M1.2 is the most efficient for the Raptors, thats been wat some of ur af guys was saying abt, as to h it wud make the F-22s beacons in the sky to infrared sensors.
As to the invincible invisible claims? Don’t know what some here are talking about. It has always been about “low observables”. Degrading the radar sufficiently. In fact a detection chart for the F117 (at least the declassified version) would always say for certain threat from certain time this is the detection range. IIRC, the F117 at the present form should be obsolete when projected in 1995 when Lockheed tried to sell some upgrades before the F22 reach full operational service. Of course that’s just PR, but yes that circle (roughly) is getting larger and larger. The question is do you know how large (or small) it is? 😉
Lol, now its only low observable, where as earlier before the shotdown all used to scream STEALTH, INVISIBLE blah blah blah .. and now, its just low-observable … thats pity.
BlackcatWere the iraqi Mig 25’s recce variants? The F-14a have shot down some Mig 25’s, but were inturn blown out of the sky by everything from Mig-21 to Mirage F-1. Of course iran claims them all to be engine stalls or flameouts :diablo:
but then , in this case Iranians are telling ONLEE the truth, where as in all other cases they are damn liars. :p
Blackcatyes.. the MiG-31 has a ground based radar inside of it.. :rolleyes:
…. now, with the coimg in of stealth, the noise which was earlier filterd out by the radar, might get some more attention in the future and the ‘specific character’ flys might get priority when filtering in ….. which will allow to track the unusual flys in the air … but that means more processing, but its not impossible …
Blackcatand what are those gadgets? :confused:
Also, does anyone know what is the engine’s settings in AB for the Mig31 to cruise at M2.4? Looking up the internal fuel and TSFC of the engine, something doesn’t quite make sense.
an old report, it got the usual cases against Raptor, but not coming up with it now, as am searching another article which mentioened abt the Pros & Cons, but not gettin it
maybe this parts is helpful ….
Supersonic Cruise – “Supercruise”
The F–22 has not yet demonstrated effective supersonic cruise
The USAF has never appreciated that speed without persistence is meaningless.
Proof—Six USAF aircraft capable of Mach 2.2 never exceeded 1.4 Mach in combat over North Vietnam in 10 years of war, in hundreds of thousands of sorties. The F–15 has never demonstrated its performance guarantee of Mach 2.5 flight in a combat configuration on a realistic combat mission profile.The USAF has the wrong definition of supercruise —(supersonic flight in turbojet thrust, i.e. without using an afterburner.
Cruise means covering distance efficiently. Fighters with wings properly sized for subsonic maneuver achieve efficient supersonic flight at altitudes of 60,000 feet requiring partial afterburning thrust. This may be unknown to the testers since the test program limits testing to below 50,000. The proper cruise condition may remain unknown. All supercruisers cruise at very high altitudes using some afterburning (i.e. ramjet) thrust—MiG–31, SR-71, as did the many designs that I have studied, generated, or supervised.
(Detailed aerodynamic-thermodynamic analysis is available upon request.)The GAO report that the F–22 has demonstrated supercruise is specious and misleading.
The reports have merely stated that the F–22 has demonstrated 1.6 Mach flight speeds in pure turbojet (dry) thrust. No report of distance traveled or persistence at those speeds was made. Supersonic speeds in dry thrust bode well, but this capability is not sufficient to achieve supercruise. Proper data are global radius of action and global persistence plots as functions of speed and altitude, for rational missions. These data must be then compared to those of the F–15 and the ancient F–104-19 to establish progress. For example—the 40 year old F-104A-19 has twice the supersonic radius of the 20 year old F-15C at 1.7 Mach, and out-accelerates it at Mach 2.2.Compare! In comparison lies the proof of progress.The Fuel Fraction of the F–22 is insufficient for pragmatic supersonic cruise missions.
Fuel Fraction, the weight of the fuel divided by the weight of the aircraft at take-off, impacts cruise-range, be it super- or subsonic. At today’s state of the art, fuel fractions of 29 percent and below yield subcruisers; 33 percent provides a quasi–supercruiser; and 35 percent and above provides useful missions. The F–22’s fuel fraction is 29 percent, equal to those of the subcruising F–4s, F–15s and the Russian MiG-29 Flanker. The Russian medium range supersonic interceptor, the MiG-31 Foxhound, has a fuel fraction of over 45 percent. Supersonic cruise fighters require higher fuel fractions since they must have excessive wing for supersonic cruise. Breguet’s range equation establishes the dependence of aircraft radius on speed, lift–to-drag ratio, specific fuel consumption and the part of the total fuel fraction available for cruise.The “dream” design mission was continually redefined and degraded to— a)conform to physical reality, and — b)to reduce the uncontrolled cost and weight. (Flexible (rubber) Requirements.)
BlackcatOk now! Let me get this straight!!!! From what I have been reading in this thread:
The 250 million USD “Look First, Shoot First, Kill First” F/A-22 Raptor still has a good chance of loosing a medium to long range battle with the decades old much cheaper Mig-31???!!! 😮 😮
Ok, now something doesn’t make sense….. :confused:
No, that kinda logic is what making thoughts like that … costly doesn’t always mean the best …. if for instance, lets say they have been developing it in lower cost markets, then it wud have been far far less or if there was a currency other than Dollars which was like 20 Dollars = 1 XX, then the country with that XX currency wud have been finding the Raptor a good platform at a far cheaper price than what they wud have developed.
Now, every fighter out there goes by “Look First, Shoot First, Kill First” and thats what every AF and pilot wud be trying to do, but then it doesn’t happen all the time with many AFs simply coz they don get the required supports for what they are intending , which is a major fact thats is ignored by most for their convinence in arguing for their biased views. Now the case with Raptor and MiG-31 has to be taken into account where the likely theatre wud be where these will meet and that lowers the adantage that Raptor have over the MiG-31in terms of lower RCS.
So basically, the problem for the Raptor is its weapons!!?? :confused: If it can launch 150+ km AMRAAM ( :confused: )…problem solved…?????
PS: According some Raptor sites, though the Raptor Doesn’t have an IRST installed, it “contains provisions for IRST”.
well no, Raptor’s weapons are not a prob, the rather short range (but adequate) BVR weapons makes use of its lower RCS advantage as many of the oponents wont be able to make it out untill they are within the range of AMRAAM and thats the game all abt. But then the striking capablity of the Raptor will be enhanced when loner range AMRAAM comes in and thats for sure, but then it all depened on the tactics on both sides, which will determine who comes on top.
Wow you merrikans are really ****** up. The russian AESA radar can detect the F-22 from 17km+, now go figure how far the MiG-31M will detect the F-22.
A source for ur above claim of 17Km wud be very appreciable …..
BlackcatThe Raptor isn’t invincible but it’s the next thing to it. It’s fought F-15s at a 5 to 1 and at an 8 to 1 disadvantage and in both instances it shot them all down without ever being detected.
1: The F-22 has an LPI radar which means it’s VERY unlikely the Mig-31 will know it’s even being looked at.
2: The F-22 has one of the most elaborate ESM systems flying today and can use it to provide targeting information for it’s AIM-120s. In other words the F-22 will know the Mig is out there looking WAY before even a non-stealth aircraft would be detected by the Mig-31. Basically your Mig-31 pilots will be cruising along with no idea that the F-22s are even around until they hear their gear tell them an AIM-120’s active radar has got them. About all they’ll have time to do is go “oh-****-where-are-the-yellow-handles”.
3: The F-22 is an all-aspect stealth aircraft. What that means is that it isn’t just stealthy from the front. It may be LESS stealthy from the sides or rear but it’s all relative. It’s likely more stealthy from the side than a normal fighter is at it’s best angle.
The best comparison to what would very likely happen would be a bunch of swimmers treading water in shark-infested waters hoping to survive with pocket knives. The shark eats anytime it wants while the swimmers hope he decides to eat the other guy. Sounds fun to me.
Hahaha, again h childish of u to take the scores agaian … For u read it, its from someone seemingly of the highest order who believes in the invinciblity of the Raptors …. and there definetely is some exaggeration as can be seen from the Harpoons and others, but we’ll take it for now.
The EMCON system is there to decide how to balance stealth against detection and jamming capability. There are five EMCON levels, controlled either automatically by the aircraft computers, or manually by the pilot.
EMCON 1 is the stealthiest, and EMCON 5 is the least stealthy, allowing the most use of radar and radio.
In its auto mode the F-22 would normally travel in the stealthiest mode, EMCON 1. After a potential enemy is spotted, the aircraft systems will gradually increase the EMCON condition as the opponent gets closer, in order to provide more data for targeting, or in the worst case, jamming. It increases EMCON in non regular steps based on the evaluated range of the enemies’ detection systems and weapons.By exploiting stealth, the pilot is able to stalk his target like a cat stalking a mouse, without the target ever being aware of danger. With each increase in EMCON, the pilot has more information with which to decide on a course of action (engage or not), and with which to target his weapons. At EMCON 3 he will be within AMRAAM firing parameters, and have enough information for BVR (Beyond Visual Range) missile targeting..
By the time the systems have reached EMCON 5, detection by the enemy is irrelevant because the aircraft will be most likely be in visual range. It should be noted that Russian fighters like the Sukhoi Su-37 employ the two pronged approach of using a very powerful radar to burn through any stealth advantage, then turning its radar off and handing over to passive IRST, thus the importance of the EMCON 1 which must be the mode of one RAPTOR and it’s wingman will have his system in EMCON 5 providing data to his counterpart (when AWACS support is not available or too risky to use one ex: in a phoenix or a Alamo environment) thus allowing him to launch a salvo of AIM-120C or the higher range D versions on the SU-37(or MKI)..
The pilot is able to manually override the avionics and choose the EMCON condition best suited for chosen tactics, For example, on a strike mission where surprise is everything, the pilot may wish to remain stealthy, despite the proximity of enemy fighters.
The avionics allow the classification and display of enemy aircraft and SAM control radars. By knowing what you are up against, and by displaying the enemy’s detection and weapons ranges, it is possible to sneak around the danger and keep the F-22 stealthy. In other words the F-22 pilot enjoys the rare ability to see his enemy yet not be seen, and therefore knows just how far his enemy is able to see and strike.
The EMCON modes are –
EMCON 1
– The radar is off.
– The AMRAAM is disabled.
– The IRST is the primary on board detection system with a range of 50 miles. It can be used to target and launch the Sidewinder air-to-air missile, and the Maverick Air-to-Ground missile.
– The Radar Homing And Warning is on to a range of 50 miles. (RHAW warns of enemy radar activity, tracks and classifies the source).
– The Missile Approach and Warning is on. (The MAW warns of enemy missile launches).
– The Communications radio is prevented from transmitting.
– The secure data link is set to receive.
– Countermeasures are disabled.EMCON 2
– The radar is on, and is able to ID and track air-to-air contacts only.
– The AMRAAM is disabled, but the missile steering circle information is now displayed on the Air-to-Air HUD.
– The IRST is on with a range of 50 miles. It can be used to target and launch the Sidewinder air-to-air missile, and the Maverick Air-to-Ground missile.
– The RHAW is on to a range of 100 miles. (The RHAW warns of enemy radar activity, tracks and classifies the source).
– The MAW is on. (The MAW warns of enemy missile launches).
– The Communications radio is fully on.EMCON 3
– The radar is on, and is able to ID, track, and target air-to-air contacts.
– The AMRAAM is now enabled.
– The IRST is on with a range of 50 miles. It can be used to target and launch the Sidewinder air-to-air missile, and the Maverick Air-to-Ground missile.
– The RHAW is on to a range of 150 miles. (The RHAW warns of enemy radar activity, tracks and classifies the source).
– The MAW is on. (The MAW warns of enemy missile launches).
– The Communications radio is fully on.EMCON 4
– The radar is on, and is able to ID, track, and target air-to-air contacts.
– The AMRAAM is enabled.
– The radar is also able to ID track and target large ground mobile, and ship targets.
– The IRST is on with a range of 50 miles. It can be used to target and launch the Sidewinder air-to-air missile, and the Maverick Air-to-Ground missile.
– The RHAW is on to a range of 200 miles. (The RHAW warns of enemy radar activity, tracks and classifies the source).
– The MAW is on. (The MAW warns of enemy missile launches).
– The ability to manually launch drones, and chaff is enabled.
– The Communications radio is fully on.EMCON 5
– The radar is on, and is able to ID, track, and target air-to-air contacts.
– The AMRAAM is enabled
– The radar is able to ID track and target all ground mobile, and ship targets. Air-to-Ground missiles requiring radar for targeting (Harpoon) are enabled for launch.
– The IRST is on with a range of 50 miles. It can be used to target and launch the Sidewinder air-to-air missile, and the Maverick Air-to-Ground missile.
– The RHAW is on to a range of 250 miles. (The RHAW warns of enemy radar activity, tracks and classifies the source).
– The MAW is fully on. (The MAW warns of enemy missile launches). The defensive suite of drones, ECM chaff, and flares is fully enabled.
– The Communications radio is fully on.Not to forget that the raptors Active Echo Cancellors (ever heard Russia developing those), high maneuverability, and because it is stealthy even a missile is fired it can easily shake of the missile, and did I mention that the raptor’s body coating is designed like a Kevlar armor which spreads the impact over a wide area thus allowing the jet to absorb a limited impact from a blast ?well I guess not
The raptor was designed to fight the next line of soviet super fighters and not have backed contraptions like the SU derieved airframe , is the PAK-FA going to be better than this?
Hope u gets some points from it as to how to tackle the Raptor … and maybe some points abt ur Raptor don “Lock-ON’ …. rite?
The AIM-120D isn’t in service yet but then how often have the Americans pulled a rabbit out of their hat and “oops I guess it was in service sooner than we thought” or “huh, I didn’t know they had those”. As for the IRST ya need to know where to point the soda straw. And while your trying to do that the F-22 is flying around knowing EXACTLY where you are and deciding if he’s hungry or not.
and u really think only Americans can pull out the Rabbits???
Another fact is that the Rabbit that Americans need to pull out is not yet born, where as the Rabbits which the Russians can pull out and comfortably multiply was born more than a decade back and saw its day out.
First of all there’s nothing that says the F-22 HAS to buzz around at Mach 1.7 all the time. And that’s assuming the reports you refer to aren’t completely bogus. Secondly what tactics are you going to use to help you fight an aircraft you can’t see for all intents and purposes? Sure you could make sure you stay at least a hundred miles from any other Mig-31 to make sure he can only get one of you at a time but then he gets to control the air by default. And third you’re still assuming the Mig-31 could see the F-22 in IR further than the F-22 could see the Mig-31 with RADAR. And likely the only thing with a bigger RCS than the Mig-31 is the Bear.
Now , its not surprising that all the reports thats against American think is bogus, where as all that goes in line with them are true and fair …. u need to get matured … Even if the F-22 can see the MiG-31 (which is the case) than what MiG-31 can see the F-22 with its IRST, Raptor wont do a $hit untill it comes in within the AMRAAM range, but if the MiG-31 has got it right with the F-22, the Raptor will have on its tail missiles fired by the MiG-31.
The F-22 doesn’t have to “lock on” to anything. You’re just not getting it. The AIM-120 isn’t a semiactive radar missile. If the F-22 knows where you are it can put a missile on you without changing radar modes in the least. Hell using it’s ESM or inter-aircraft data links it can target you without using it’s radar at all. As for losing LPI when it has to “lock on” maybe you are confusing it with the F-15 when using an AIM-7 SEMIACTIVE radar missile. If it’s even true.
Oh yeah, and whats it that makes it fire???….. everything needs to lockon to fire, if am not terribly worng. The cae with the LPI is that it don change the waves and triggering the RWRs of the opponents giving it that its beeing tracked …. Oh yeah as u said the datalink and using it to fight w/o using its radar, and thats exactly what the Russians have counted, if u can outspend us on developing fully stealthy fighter, then we wud make it worth not fighting it with by employing longer-range missile to take out the invaluabe supports for the air-warriors, at a very small fraction of the cost as what u spend to develop the fighter. And thats what u get to see in Ks-172 and R-37M!
How are you going to take out the AWACS when you’ve got fighters you can’t detect between you and it and the distance between you is FAR out of range of your R-33s (Or R-37s if those vaporware missiles ever make it into service)?
Now, do u pass ur missile meant for the AWACS through the middile-man standing between u and the AWACS??? ….. i guess not, so even if the Raptor is within say 50 Km of the MiG-31/MiG-29/Su-27 who is out to take out the opponents AWACS aka gonna KILL the Raptors capablity enhancer, it cant do nothing with the current AMRAAM, other than watching (or maybe firing on the Killers of ur AWACS) the R-37/M flying off to the take out the AWACS. In anyway, the objective of the opponets wud be met as the opponents wud not dare to fight w/o the supports and wud be rather having a tactical retreat.
BlackcatRespectfully, I’m sure you’ve read through most of the threads here. The prevailing sentiment from a number of the posters seems to be that in the event of a conflict, the US might as well not bother sending its planes up, since they’ll apparently be immediately sent fluttering to the earth by the mighty technological juggernaut that is the Russian Air Force. To some people on this board, an F-22 will be pathetically easy to bring down with a Foxhound, Fulcrum, or Flanker, which by that logic infers that an F-15 is toast against a MiG-21 or 23. So (and again, I mean this respectfully) please don’t lecture me about things being “the other way round.” It’s just not the case.
Of course not, its actually the contrary , as most posters belive that since the scores is what is al abt, no fighter except the US made can fight and its against that theory thatmost arguments pop up and i hope u understand that.
To answer your second point, what I meant was that while the Foxhound is scouring the airspace with its powerful radar like a searchlight, the Raptor pilot, who has long since detected the MiG’s radar signal, has taken advantage of his stealth ability and moved to a favorable position, long before the MiG has detected him. Those ultra-long range AAMs the Foxhound is carrying won’t be of any use without a target. As another poster pointed out, the first indication a Foxhound pilot will likely have that a Raptor is hunting him will be a missile launch warning in his headset.
Of course not, MiG-31 may not be not be doing CAP as its an interceptor and its meant for that. So that interception is most likely to be based on the Ground based radars guidance and then from its own radars and the GCI.
In addition to that will be that, it will most likely be called-upon to take out the ‘supports’ to weaken the enemys fighting capablity, the first and foremost effect of that wud be a ‘TACTICAL RETREAT’ by the enemy because of their inability to have a ‘lonely’ fight, which means the objective of the defender has been met !
In the interceptors role, mind that MiG-31s wud most likely be in its own home ground with full support of GCI, the ADS etc etc aiding the MiG-31s indirectly. Russia is not invading where as Unkil is building up all the supports for a ’rounding-up’ of Russia with a future option of targetting the Russian vital installations with its stealthy penetration (and to support that) and thats the the ONLY scenario where the F-22 and the MiG-31 (and hence other Russian a/c) will meet. Raptor, coz its the only option for the US to get-in and which was what they built for (and if they can’t they are no better than USELESS) , where as the MiG-31 wud be the the primary defender/interceptor of the Russian airspace with supports from an almost equal number of MiG-29s & Su-27s, inadditio to scores of ground based SAMs, do mind that the agressor is is US and the reverse is not likely to happen.
Ask yourself this – would you care to ride backseat in a Russian fighter going after such a difficult (i.e., protected) target as an American AWACS? I would hope your affairs were all in order first.
Ofcourse i won’t be the second one to say yes, and I don expect my commander to be a dumb arse to send me to fight w/o having a stratery (and discuss it with those concerned) to take the supports out. And like some members have put it in Naval section that any Navy wud sacrifice a sub for a carrier, like wise, even a simple attack on the supporting airborne assets wud have the enemy on the backfoot before it can regroup, let alone when a scenario, when the asset is lost. This is more so for those who have never ventured out of the protection of their airborne supports and is fighting near/in the opponents territory.
And how protected is an American AWACS???…… can u just describe me that?
The term “supercruise” isn’t really applicable to the Mig-31 as it’s designed to operate for relatively lengthy periods of time in afterburner. Probably the one aircraft flying today which would be difficult for the F-22 to run down in a tail chase.
where did i say that MiG-31 have got a non-AB supercruising ability?? … what i said was it does not appy to the MiG-31s as it can do supersonic cruising for its entire mission range at Mach 2.3 + with a maximum attainable speed of Mach 2.8+ , which other a/c seldom can do.
BlackcatAnd we are operating Klub on surface ship and subs , so why do you think Russians would not be Thrilled to assist as long as they get the money for doing that.
less scorpene = more amurs.
i don know, y u guys only look at Russian cooperation like that way…. as if they are the bad boys out there only to make money and money and is the one not likely to cooperate or is not cooperating.
Have guys asked the question in another way???….. like Y is it that DCN not integrating the Russian missile with their system??….. is there their fear of the Russians coming into their area of ‘concern’ regarding the systems, do they fear that the Exocet is not likely to find much market and the Russian Klub is gonna take it out, which definetely is a much better system than the French one.
As for the Exocet report, I too have read that report which mentioned like 36 x Exocet being already sold to India (what a pun!) … so its more likely that the French have been taking hard stance that its going to be there missile and anything other means a heavy increase in price (and unfortunate that Indian talk abt pressurising only Russia, to lower cost) …. which a cash strapped IN wud not like to see. Also, plzz do all u guys rem that, integrating a western systemn to Russian one is cheaper coz of the currency value difference, where as the integration of the Russian system on the Western ones means more costly, as the work cost is higher there.
also, its the weapons on which the supplier makes much money after the product has been sold and Y wud French like to throw away that??… another one is the deal with Israel for the Debry, when we cud have made them integrate the in-service R-77 (and there by not spending anything new) with the Elta radar. So either the Isrealis was inflexible with their package or we just were soft to even bargain.
May be Russia is sweetening the pot so that the IN buys another 3 Krivak III
yeap thats strong possibility especially with recent labor problems in MDL.
to be frank guys….. how many of u guys really take pride thru the roof, w/o even counting the ground facts abt IN’s primary capital ships??? …… I do count and its just no more than 11 ships with just 3 which have got the punch to stop any opponent, with every single ship lacking a decent (yeah i think so) long-range AD missile. … and u guys are still wondering as to if we need to order more or not ….
As for me, IN was in a delima when ordering new ships as one one hand they had to worry abt the never coming funds and the other was the degrading force levels, which finally made to order just 3 ships, where as a more better option wud have been a larger (i’d say 9) for filling in the voids in the force levels. But all these caused that IN did not went into a customisation (like standard 2 helo hanger) for the Krivak-111, but still they had the option of having the features of the P-17 integrated into the Krivak-III and ordering the ships from the Russian yards, which wud have reduced the time considerable.
But the option for 3 more has been there for a while now and if it had been integrated into the earlier deal, the unit cost wud have come down. But hope this time around, the IN does the customisationn (2 helo hanger), longer range AD missile etc and order atleast 3 (preferrably 6 so that the number can be filled quickly and the unit cost is also lowered).
and its just toooooo &ucking long that the Indian shipyards churn out the ships…. the ADS is to come only by 2012 …. but the Russian’s was able to built the larger Kiev class each in like 5-6 yrs at the max, if am not wrong.
Also, i think the IN chief had somewhere said abt that IN wud have liked to have larger carrier, do u guys know abt the same??…..if yes, can anyone post the related news article and link.
BlackcatOh damn, its 14.77mb… what all does the movie shows??
Blackcatnow that wud be a real comparison as to how the MiG-31 and F-22 will face-off ….. as for an American intrusion into the Russian airspace for an assault, F-22 is the key, where as Russia’s bet wud be the MiG-31 (inaddition to others) interceptor to take out the intruder …. but we might have to limit this to the R-33 for now (or maybe we can take the R-37 & R-37M and other improvements thats likely to go into the MiG-31) …
AN/APG-77, 460 km Vs 20 m2 target…..
Whats the range of the Zaslon-M???
High-speed??? Whats the max supercruise speed of the Mig-31M/BM???
I think, the range is something like 250-300km or so. But the supercruise for the MiG-31 doesnt come, as it can do supersonic for its entire interception range of 700+Km at Mach 2.3 +. The max speed reported speed for the MiG-31 is Mach 2.83
And some people are so blinded by anti-US bigotry they will refuse to accept any idea other than absolute Russian superiority. The simple truth is that in combat between these two particular aircraft, the Foxhound survives precisely as long as the Raptor pilot wishes it to.
its the other way round man …. many simply refuses to accept the fact that Raptor is not invincible, and hence anyone who don go with that line is anti-american or illogical … and u wud like to explain the theatre where Raptor pilot will wish as to how much time the MiG-31 need to live …… please do elaborate.
That’s the idea of shaping for stealth. The lowest possible RCS is from a head on aspect, so the head on aspect has become the de-facto measurement. You can’t eliminate radar returns in every aspect, but you can lessen them enough to shorten the range at which an enemy gets a usable return off of you. A competant Raptor pilot is not going to be supercruising around giving the Foxhound a quartering shot- especially since that high power, long range radar will be highlighting it’s position to the raptor WAY before the Foxhound gets a return of the Raptor.
k fine, thats what the shape is meant for, but can u tell as to the speed at which Raptor will be doing its patrol/intrusion/whatever ??? …. but the 100 + Km AMRAAM is not yet in, and with the current one, its most likely gonna come in within the IRST range of the MiG-31s.
For 4th generation fighter which must use an afterburner to go supersonic (with a usable weapons load) this is true, but it is less of an issue for a Raptor as the dry thrust from it’s engines emits less IR energy. Aerodynamic heating of leading edges etc. from continued supersonic flight may be useful for terminal guidance of IR missles, but it’s not enough alone to detect a aircraft at a great enough distance to put your long range weapons advantage to use. Also tactics again also help reduce this vulnerablility, which when combined with lower radar observability will in most case enable an Raptor to keep it’s most detectable emission shielded as much as possible. Most of the time the Raptor pilot will know where his enemy is before the other pilot detects him and will have manuevered into the most advantageous position both offensively and defensively.
Well, then ur ignoring the reports of the the friction on the Raptors skin that makes it ‘light up’ on the IRSTs … and yes, as u said, tactics helps a lot and that will also help the MiG-31 to stay up, on contrary to what most of u guys think.
Whomever said this has no idea about modern A-A combat tactics. Most fighters- especially western fighters (but not exclusively) today do not openly broadcast their position with their onboard radar all the time. They rely on AWACS or ground radar when available to detect and vector them into the best position for their on board systems to take over. This is even more so for the Raptor. The radar equiping it will be powerful and extremely capable, but most of the time it won’t be used or if it is, it’ll be in a low probability of intercept mode reducing the range at which it will give away the Raptors position. In cases where the Raptor is operating in a radar picket situation, there’s likely others waiting to pounce that are radar silent. The first indication an enemy would likely have is when it’s onboard missle warning equipment detects the flash of the missle firing or when the AMRAAM goes active, which by then it’s WAY too late in a Foxhound.
Exactly, Raptors capablity is greatly (as is the case with all US & other fighters) enhanced by the AWACS and other supports available and the reason y i mentioned as to y the R-37 might get onto the future a/c. So in the case (the theatre where Raptor & MiG-31 meet), the first priority wud be to take out the supporting platforms like the AWACS, which makes the fighters to depend mainly on their wingman and likewise to scan the area, target etc etc which gives out the ‘general’ position at a pretty long-range for the other group to vector its fughter cautiously to that position with passive searching and tracking ….
And this doesn’t apply to the Foxhound too? It should apply moreso since the APG-77 at least has a LPI operating mode.
and that LPI operating mode is out (emcon3) when it has to lock on the targets as i can recall the same from some other post ….
But when those opinions are based upon incorrect or biased info, then those opinions deserve to be refuted. The facts speak for themselves- The only time a Foxhound would likely get the best of a Raptor would be if the Raptor was on fire, jammers active, radar blaring, flying subsonic, all alone, on the Foxhounds home turf. In that impossible situation a P-51 could probably know down a Raptor.
Nope, again, u count too much …. the Raptor wud be on ‘fire’ when as many reports have said, the skin friction helps the IRSTs greatly and thats mostly when Raptor is in supersonic mode, and so wud Raptor be alone when the supports are take-out first ….
BlackcatKen
thats some nice pics …. never seen those …. what abt some pics of the Kiev and Gorshkov??…. i think i’ve somewhere seen a pic of Kiev with their waist lift downed … but wud like to have the view of the both that lifts in downed position and the opening into the hull.
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