Austin,

well when i mentioned the replacement of Granits by Yakhonts/PJ-10, what i was intending to say was that this cud be the one that might find future as a standard weapon with Russian Navy (with longer range) , as its a rather smaller and lighter weapon, but with almost same level of leathality as the Granits.

Now changing over to PJ-10 means that the carrier (meant ships) can be small in size and can be done away with bulky subs like Oscar and wud be able to carry the same amount on smaller subs like the Sevrodvinsk class.

is there any repeat telecast of these???

And any Indian who have recorded the same programme??

BTW, y r they showing it now and that too not just once, but 3 times a day??

specs of the Australian MESA please ……and more pictures too….

this wud have been a better option than the Phalcon for the IAF, as its also cheaper.

Austin,

BTW great pics of Aero India from u man…. keep up the good work…..

Garry,

I think, the Russian variant of PJ-10 but with a greater range (like 550Km) will finally replace the Granit as the CBG stike weapon. Maybe they are moving in that direction, for a smaller, lighter but very effective weapon. And 8 of these in the Severodvinsk class would be enough to give a bloody blow to any CBGs.

An article related to the boilers, not directly to the Gorshkov’s but still yes related, as its the KVG3 boiler. The link (Military Parade) below is not working for me, but u guys just check it out if it works for u.

CONVERSION OF MARITIME BOILERS FOR STATIONARY POWER GENERATING PLANTS
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Vladimir Zinin
Director General of Special Boiler Design Bureau
Vadim Pildish
Director of the Sector
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The Special Boiler Design Bureau, which boasts extensive experience in developing maritime power generating plants, has developed a number of steam boilers of unique design on the basis of ship’s high-pressure boilers. The technical characteristics of some of the steam boilers make them of interest for application in stationary power generating plants. Necessity prompted SKBK’s designers to recognize the feasibility of using maritime boilers on the “ground.”

The use of such plants began in 1961. With the accumulation of experience, high-pressure boiler designs offered increasing reliability and production efficiency. For application in stationary power generating plants the maritime boilers were decertified and modified in accordance with the requirements of the inspection services of Russia for stationary conditions.

These plants are characterized by a number of specific features. One such feature is the unique principle of operation of the high-pressure boiler converted for use in stationary power generating plants. For example, this type of boiler utilizes outlet gas energy for delivery of air to the furnaces for fuel burning. A gas turbine drives the compressor which pumps the air. The turbine is connected to the boiler gas line downstream of the economizer and operated by flue gas which has already transferred a considerable part of its heat energy to the boiler heating surfaces. It is remarkable that the compressor and gas turbine are integrated into a common turbo supercharger. The free air drawn by the compressor is heated during compression. Then, the air is supplied through the air duct to the boiler casing. The casing is rated at the compressor’s maximum pressure. After passing through the inter-casing space, the air is forced through the air nozzle to the boiler furnace and mixed with fuel atomized by the injectors, thus providing its normal burning. The fuel combustion products, or flue gases, pass through the gas-cleaning system, removing any hard particles, and enter the gas turbine. In the process it transfers part of its heat to the heating surfaces in the boiler furnace and gas duct.

Thus, excluding unproductive losses by optimizing the working process, the SKBK has achieved the high productivity and efficiency of ecologically clean boilers.

It should be noted here that depending on the boiler load and external air temperature it is possible to observe insufficient or excess power developed by the gas turbine. In this case, insufficient power is compensated for by an additional steam turbine and excess power is avoided by releasing air supplied by the compressor through the air control valve.

The feed water is delivered to the boiler through the water economizer. From there it flows into the steam collector through the feed tube to the slip pipes. The slip pipes are located behind the screen, close to the steam and water heaters. The steam generated in the screen row and convection bank of tubes enters the steam superheater and is fed to services.

Structurally, the high-pressure boiler is essentially a compact vertical 2-head boiler with a vertical heat superheater, an economizer and one-side gas flow.

In consideration of actual operating conditions, the SKBK made the boiler control system fully automatic. Thus, the boiler features high dynamic characteristics: the increases and decreases for several minutes, and, since the boiler’s parameters do not go beyond operational limits, the alarm and protection systems will not operate.

The relatively low weight and dimensions of the high-pressure boilers designed by the SKBK make it possible to install them in small shore boiler houses and electric power stations.

A small exhaust heat boiler is installed behind the high-pressure boiler to increase the efficiency of the boiler plant. It can generate the desired form of steam or heat water, depending on the boiler house’s requirements. The efficiency of this plant ranges from 93 to 96 percent.

With due regard to consumer requirements the SKBK has developed several boiler models: boilers fired by gas fuel or boilers fired by gas and residual fuel. The SKBK currently supplies three models: KVG3GM, KVG3M-GM (gas and residual fuel) and KVG2MG (for gas fuel).

The steam-generating capacity of boilers for stationary conditions is reduced to increase service life. The boilers are supplied fully assembled, can be shipped by rail or by sea and it takes 24 hours or less to arrange and install the boilers in the limited dimensions of standard medium capacity boiler houses.

The automatic control system employs microprocessors. The boilers are controlled from the central station by one operator. The control system, control fittings, turbo-supercharger, and exhaust heat boiler are supplied complete with the boilers.

The measured exhaust of nitric oxide is not in excess of 150 mg/nm3 when the boiler is fired by gas fuel and 250 mg/nm3 when fired by residual fuel.

In addition to high pressure automated boilers fired by gas and residual fuel, the SKBK is ready to supply:
– automated unattended boiler units with a steam-generating capacity of 6.3 and 16 t/h, a saturated steam pressure of 0.7 to 1.6 MPa fired by gas and residual fuel. The weight of the boilers is not more than 15 tons;
– exhaust-heat steam and hot-water boilers with a heating capacity of 0.1 to 25 MW;
– automated hot-water boiler unit KVGA 0.5 with a heating capacity of 0.5 Gcal/h, fired by gas fuel;
– automated boiler KGM 125-14-540, fired by gas-and-residual fuel, with a steam-generating capacity of 125 t/h, a superheated steam temperature of 5400 C, and a steam pressure of 13.8/9 MPa;

The SKBK is ready to design and supply any heat exchangers made of titanium, stainless or carbon steel, and hot-water boilers of any heating capacity.

The SKBK designs heating and machinery sections for boiler houses, supplies boilers, automatic control systems and boiler house equipment, performs supervisory installation, setups and commissions boilers for the customer, trains the customer’s personnel and performs boiler maintenance. All products are released to customers with the necessary licenses granted by the Russian Federation State Municipal Technical Inspection (Boiler Inspection) and the Russian Federation State Atomic Inspection agencies.

The low weight and small dimensions of high-pressure boilers for stationary propulsion machinery, good dynamic properties, and high reliability and maintainability make them very attractive for application at small and medium-size electric stations. The short installation, setup and activation time, no need for a heavy foundation provide economic advantages in terms of capital and working costs.

The space and cost savings over normal boilers of similar power have resulted in the SKBK receiving contracts with several large plants and power system departments in Russia and an oil refinery in Lithuania.

http://www.milparade.ru/security/24/156.htm

and another of my solution for Easy reading 😉

back a little earlier ….. but no news abt the NG’s Feb 14 presentation to the IN ..anyone got news abt that???

Well, Blackout what we can also note from the CdG-pictures is that there’s more than just aircraft in the hangar: we see a boat, boxes, trolleys, carts etc.; all things that are not on the pictures of the hangar of the former AG. Moreover, I think that in times of crisis, the amount of these non-aircraft goods will have to increase if the number of aircraft increases.

I don argue on that, u r correct there, there wud be very much items spread inside the hanger and more space wud be required for those things during the ‘operational period’. But u might alos have noticed that mainly troleys etc are taking the spaces in between the a/c parked and not the a/c space as such, except for some. But then, maybe just a handful might have ever seen any of the Kiev class carrier’s hanger, let alone when it was loaded with a/c. But in the speculated fig i started with, i earlier too mentioned abt the spaces meant for boats etc etc being left out from the hanger profile. Its only after which have I drwan that hanger outline, which may or maynot be in tune with the actual hanger dimensions.

But here again, i think u fully forgot to take a closer look of the Kiev class and the modified Kiev class aka Gorshkov ….. simply coz u missed what i had earlier said, as u simply missed this one feature, failure of which prompted u to fire a salvo of boats.

hope u can see the boats on the carrier, atleast 4 of these boats can be counted on the Gorshkov with 2 each on both sides, as what can be seen from the above picts. Maybe its the total number or maybe 4 more can be carried inside close to these. And I say, I very much like the way these have been put up, simply coz the speed of disembarking and lifting up these boats for the purpose they are carried very much meet the needs, w/o dragging it from the hanger and then lowering it etc etc. The slipways for aiding in lowering of these boat can be clearly seen from the picture, which also means that, the area also have its own pulleys etc for lowering and pulling it up.

And I don think, there is a need for hanger facility for the boats on the ships, though most carrier (like the Nimitz, Kuzentzov) seems like carry it away from the visible area but then, one is a bigger carrier and the other, even bigger. But on the Invincible class u can see two of them on the island structure on the starboard side. BAe’s CVF design has got this feature of the Kiev class for dis-embarking of boats and others as can be seen from the belwo pic. Though no slipways can be seen, it can be sure that some of that ‘openings’ definetely have special purpose for this disembarkment and the region has their own dedicated pulleys and stuff for the purpose. So possibly the final CVF might as well have this feature and to me these dedicated area for the boats, where by they just need to lower it and pull it back up, after the work with their own dedicated supports, looks like a good feature for a carrier.

But the CDG seems to not having any boats outside and is possibly stored inside the hanger, which also means it takes up the hanger space of one a/c as seen in the earlier pic … don know how many boats the CDG carry normally.

Secondly, if you take a good look at the CdG-hangar pictures and the angles the photo’s were shot and the position of the elevators, you can observe that this hangar is a lot less crowded and packed than at appears at just a superficial first look. Aircraft in the hangar can be moved rather quickly to the two available elevators. It certainly is less crowded than the hangar at some of the AG-picturesl in which aircraft movement seems a logistical nightmare. However, in its future configuration the CdG will have some more aircraft on board than it has now and I’d like to see how the hangar will look then.

ofcourse I know that, its less crowded than from the pic of the AG in which i showed the a/c arrangement. The space is very much there inside the CDG from the pic and not a bit croweded, but actually how many a/c are there inside now??…. from what i cud count with some makeout, from the three pictures available , i can count (totalling the figures from 3 pictures) 14 a/c. Moreover, it looks to me that the pic was taken from the extreme front of the hanger and most likely from the side racks that u can see around the hanger, in the pic.

Even the PJ’s GS mentions that the CDG hanger has a capacity to accomodate 20-25 a/c, allthough the CDG can carry 35-40 a/c. That same things cud be what Gorshkov be able to do but with a lower figures on the deck coz of it being not able to accomodate much like the CDG’s – comparatively – wast deck. But if at all the bow section was to be modified like that of CDG with catapult, then I bet, the Gorshkov wud have been able to carry on her decks same or more than what CDG can accomodate on her decks. But thats not happening and so lets keep it off in the list of just another ‘IFs’.

This also means, the IN’s 16 x MiG-29K(KUB)’s + 8-10 Ka-29/31 = 24-26 a/c (same as CDG) can be accomodated inside the hanger where as in total, the – earlier – said amount of 36 (30+6) a/c maybe able to get on the Gorshkov, which might be what IN be looking forward to achieve in the future from the initial amount of nearly 24 (16+8) a/c. And that again does not mean that all these have to be on the deck, but can be divided between the deck and the hanger like the figures thats put for the Spanish carrier of 25 a/c …. of which 12 is carrier on deck and 13 in the hanger.

Now, this is also whatz said abt CDG —- The flight deck can launch one aircraft every 30 seconds or handle a mass landing of 20 aircraft in just 12 minutes —– and thats what the IN and IN’s Gorshkov will have to look forward to – as to how much a/c, at the maximum it can handle on a mass landing (mass T/O wont be a problem) and this is what – i think – will determine the maximum -on-deck- airgroup on the Gorshkov, and not the size of the hanger.

well, i don intend to get this thread reduced to a Gorshkov Vs CDG one, what i intended with the earlier posting of the hanger pic was to show that – from the available sources – the said amount of 16+8 a/c was possible in the hanger, it definetely need not have to be arrangerd in a proper way like what i showed, but can be arranged in a way that can best utilise the hanger space and also make it convinient for moving materials inside the hanger.

About what u asked earlier abt

How can you be so sure of the Brahmos placement? Do you have any authoritive sources on this “following-of-the-Russian-concept” of carriers?

The PJ-10 talk was there for a while in the Indian press and it does not seem very much offtrack, but if fixed winged aircraft like E-2C or Yak-44 has to be accomodated then aft elevator has to be enlarged to fully accomodate the a/c, as it cannot have the luxuary of having its butt stick oputside for some salty winds like what we get to see in the CDG’s E-2C picture.

Also, If the IN goes in for a offensive fit like the PJ-10, then it as default becomes what u asked abt “following-of-the-Russian-concept”, simply coz u wont find any other carrier in the world that goes with an offensive fit of anti-ship missiles.

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BTW, I hope some of our Chinese friends can take some shots of the Minsk hanger and post it here, so as to get some view of the inside of the hanger of the earlier Kiev class …