again grr8 news … but when are they gonna develop the said 24,000 thrust engine for the MiG-29’s… I say that wud be the best news along with the AFAR for the MiG-29’s ….

and did u guys forgot this one or ignored this very beautiful picture??

anyway I am at the service for u .. 🙂

Only Israel? India is almost everywhere in action. And it is strange that a nation that is founded by Ghandi is just looking away from reality for getting arms. Greatest and oldest democracy on earth in search for more power.

hopefully u forgot abt the reply that Gandhiji gave when asked abt how he’d react to someone mischiefs against his wife??

well thats exactly what India is missing!

Blackcat, India is interested in Ofek5 imagery downlink and could
certainly be buying certain types of hi-end opto-electronics for space
pgm (including milsats) from folks like Elbit and El-op. No other
nation is willing to supply us the vast range of kit Israel is doing
with no strings attached. we have a whole gallery of common enemies.

Israel is a great guy to have in our corner. with Unkil we have to be duly cautious which we are.

So I think your tirade is misguided.

yup i know abt the imagery, but have it have the Indian acomodativeness for Isreali subs made them give us any rebate on the Phalcon??…. which is as easily can sccumb to American pressure to the newer and cheaper Beoings AWACS??

and can u tell me when Isreal started building their satellites and when their space programes really took off??…the only coz of which India did not go in for the high rewsolution or for a military way was coz of lack of political wil, if we had we’d have developed our own by now or wud have acquired the same from soviet Russia earlier …

not that i want everything to be close, but do have what u need to get in deals is what I am telling

Erez,

Yeah, chill buddy.
What’s wrong with you today?
It’s not a shame to have foreign assitant in your projects and developments. You should really be happy the IAI and HAL are partners. We may not bulid submarines but we sure as hell good in marketing.
Sure you can also put Indian avionics on the heli, and I’m sure some countries might buy it this way, but with all due the respect, we got better electronics than you and than a large part of the world, and combining the Dhruv’s airframe with Israeli systems with unleash the chopper’s potential on the best way.
It’s amazing what you can do to airframes today if you install state of the art avionics and upgrades. You can take an F-4 and make it like an F-15E, you can take an F-5 and make it like an F-16, and you can take a helicopter and make it a world leader.

hey c’mon I’m already chilling 😀 , but chilli means different in Hindi though 😀 …. k that said, yup i am not against any deals with Isreral nbut it has to be of equal footing, in this Dhruv deal, HAL is the biggest looser whatever way u look, Just coz HAL don have a good marketing wing does not warrent HAL or the Indian Govts to hand over the Dhruv to the Isrealis to market it as IAI’s Dhruv, But y can’t it be marketed as HAL’s Dhruv with IAI’s painting with that symbolying that Isreal do have its part in that with the avionics, and a fully HAL painting if its with HAL avionics…. I say thats pretty fair in marketing

i never contest that India as superior tech than Isreal, but in some fields we do have, but that also does not mean that all that isreal does is perfect or any of that sort … but what i’d expect from the isreali’s is to stfu with their media dosages

Relations with Israel should be pressed forward asap, Israel has a lot of tech know how that we can lear from.

yup i too want that , but not at the cost of our own development or institutes or national cause or at the cost of an old freind. Isreal cant just not be unfaithful to Unkil, and if they did so, Isreal wud be the most —— nation on earth for ditching someone w/o whom Isreal as a nation wud not have existed till now.

That means a lot which gets itself tagged to Indias relations with unkil, even if it means ….??? … hope u guys are ready .. but then who cares if its not personal and just a matter for India as a nation ..isn’t it?

I just think he’s too vicious and (black)catty sometimes
but a valued member of the team nonetheless

Hi to u too team mate 😀

Why? ADS already is pretty similar to AG. And why does the ADS need to be a 60000ton CV? Mind explaining which part of the world IN is going to be fitting in? Which other navy challenges IN in the IOR?

oh no, i did not measn ads has to be 60,000 tonne, it has to be in dimensions …. i know my wording are sometimes very confusing… let me clear it to u that, what i want or what i think will do best is a design already made be modified to the minimum to cater to the needs of the IN in the near future and in the distant future which means – CVF design is available which we can/cud have buy/bought along with the AJT deal. Else, what we need to do is to make the ADS atleast of the size that CVF and AG is so that the shortfall of the STOBAR design mainly the launch, recovry and deck space be eliminated to a great extend. Again i feel afraid u r limiting ur vision with the blanket of the current geo-political situations.

and why again? when the design works and TO and L runs are sufficient for the aircraft it will operate there is no point in making the project even more expensive. it is rather illogical to have a longer deck just because you like it. when it works it is fine. a longer waterline or length wont take away the disadvantages of a STOBAR arrangement.

so is it actually be the NLCA which will make it to the ADS just for a national pride or its the Rafales just coz many don like Russian??…anyway I wud not like to see the NLCA on it but if the Rafales cud get in at the MiG’s price it wud be good. and let me ask you, Y is the project getting colslier??… if we can analyse the sub-contracts that ADS has we may be able to round up what all makes it costly which from the said value of Rs2000 crore don look much costly either….. and yes longer length will take away the shortfall of the STOBAR and thats with an increased deck space, longer or same launch length but w/o obstructing the landing strip … y r u ignoring these points, I sauy its worth the cost involved in modifying it, else it sud be only NLCA which it must operate. Its illogical not to have a longer length coz, coz it gives u the space for manuevrablity in deck sopace management if the carier has to operate a/c larger than NLCA, and I say an a/c carrier designed just on the basis of acomodating NLCA is not good for the future.

and you know this because you know the final dimensions and layout of the CVF? it is not even clear if the CVFs will be smaller 20-30 ton or bigger 60 ton CVs. it is not clear if they will be CATOBAR, STOBAR, CTOL or STVOL.

nope, am telling that from the known figures of the speculated designs, it does not matter if CVF is 20-30 tonnes or not, what i want is the Indian Navy to have a carier which can accomodte its future needs. and that said the I believe IN has catered to ADS (speculated size) coz of the all round constarints thats been imposed on them.

CATOBAR is a distinct possibility and no one should be putting too much hope on it.

I agree, but there still is possiblity, else i don see as to y the bow needs to add weight to the ship with its wider base than whats required for a simple ski-jump.

need is the mother in invention. when there is no need for it they wont go ahead with it. very simple.

yup thats my favorite quote 😀 …. and the current ADS is just coz of that – IN needed a carrier but, the all-round constraints on them they modified their plans to contain itself to the speculated ADS.

erm its a STOBAR. simultaneous landings and TO are not really possible. the JSF that RN chose is the STOVL variant. it doesn’t have too many landing hassles to deal with as opposed to arrested recovery aircraft. one could decide to make what you are wishing for but the airwing would be too small for a CV that size and it would be hugely expensive. in other words it will not be worth the value N is paying for. with potential adversaries in no good shape a STOBAR with a capable air wing works. a low sortie rate is not the biggest problem. the lack of credible AWACS is. and the CVF does not address that unless a CATOBAR system is adopted. so it hardly matters.
drop your fascination with an extended deck. it hardly does much as far as operationality goes.

I don agree to that, if the even the first launch position can be cleared from the angle landing strip, i see no reason as to y STOBAR can’t have a simultaneous L and T/O … i don agree to that view by just taking into account earlier models of STOBAR. But that said, adversariers change at their time and choosing and not with ours and when that happen IN sud not be caught with its pants down. Abt the CATOBAR, yup the cvf don have irt now, but they have made provisoj for the same in the future which means thats its a design which will also cater to future needs with maybe minimal ‘work-outs’. If u want me to drop my fascination, yup i am ready for it any time , it cost me nothing, But my virew remains the same as far as Indian Navy’s carriers are concerned and what I think India needs to built for its future.

good luck with trying to fit 36 Migs on it. and if you can somehow do it you wont get 16 helos onboard. an LCA air wing might be possible.

Yup thanks. don u think 36 MiG-29K’s can be fitted on to a CVF design???…. and yup all that figures was that so-called perfect wing for that size. But for IN that 16 helos or to be more precise 10 helos needs not have to be there as the CBG will have 8-10 ships and whcih means that nearly 16-20 helos are at the disposal for ASW and other roles.So that space is utilized by the fixed wingers …

I didn’t say if it would make it or not. i said it is no where near finalized.

k, whatever it is, I don mind

Yeah good one! We should just take a rejected design and put an air wing on it that the CVF designers didn’t think about!

I’d like to put that as selecting the Su-27’s over the MiG-29K’s …though these two cases have a bit more wider space in btn them , but the other case just has got politics involved and nothing else.

ROLF! i am still think if I should bother replying to this one or not………

whats ROLF … maybe arthur can educate me with some of his own txt messages and admin’s mission of some literacy in this forum as has been adviced to me also:D

but that said, I’d love to chat with any Indian on that especially if anyone thinks it like the outsiders want all Indians to think and see. But u can put ur points on that, I’d be only be glad to take ur points. tks

Will you quit this issue already? ADS is designed for NLCA. And for that it works fine. Whatever makes you think they are putting migs or flankers in it like Keiv has to is beyond me.

well if its NLCA , then Ok …. still am not happy with it, but no way i though of putting flankers on it but yup MiG-29K wud have been the choice and hopefully the earlier drawings/model of the ADS showed some 13 MiG-29K’s on the deck.

and this is why people don’t like discussing anything with you. you blabber to much on your own little theories. keep it to naval discussions. I don’t want to get into drivel here. First you claim CVF is good for navy and then you somehow manage to relate it to UNSC.
You waste too much time writing unrelated material. keep it in context if you want to be taken seriously.

yup, but I simply don mind, k many are my theories but i don cook up my theories w/o a base, but i absolutely don understand as to y u guys simply don understand the underlying diplomacy and etc etc that has its hands in every deal … and u don think the so calles sweetning of the US and UK arese by the Indian Govt has anything to do with improving relation even at the cost of national pride and honour??…. I wonder if these guys who talk abt friendly matches and otherdo the same in their personal lifes. If their neighbour was to have caused trouble in his home, he might not even let his kids speak or plauy with the other party and thats how many of these guys are but when it comes to the nation’s honour – Kya cheez hai Yeh
….. and yeah again blabbering and wasting of time, but sorry yaar, i cant help …. the gurl next to me is pondering and peeping/watching as to what this crazy fellow is doing with already 3 cups of coffee and some simles on the face, anyway she is pretty 😉 , but seems like pretty busy helping her firend out, seems like a very helpful person 😎

the ADS is being designed from ground up as a fixed wing carrier. It probably wont carry the Mig29K. it will carry the NLCA so the 252m length works out. Should they decide to change the length later on is anyone’s guess. the hanger space will also be much better designed and utilized the aircraft should be able to move quicker to and from the deck. And angling of the deck is also slightly better to decrease the time between TOs and Ls.

ok if thats it , let it be, I’d only be happy to have a carrier which can cater to the future demands and varying needs of the IN (as that will definetely vary with geopolitics)…. but plz do let me know abt the operational capablity that u can see with 252 meter and 30 NLCA(?) and others

anyway , tks for being good, and talking to me as to what other don like discussing with me

every navy would love to get its hands on a 90000 ton displ. CVN too. whats your point? CVs are expensive business.

ofcourse not, every nation don have the need of that 90,000 ton disp and considering the reality of Indian situation is what I am arguing for an ADS which matches the AG or CVF in its dimensions and yup these are expensive business but I wonder if anyone fall ill or broke a hand or leg , if the money spend wud be the first concern and put it above ones own body or to get back to a healthy note.

ADS would end up being a far better designed carrier than AG ever was. ADS si being designed from ground up as a fixed wing carrier. despite being smaller it will end up having a larger airwing. so hanger space is not an issue.

Of course yeas , and it has to be like that’s, iof not there just is no point in making an ADS which don even have the capability of the AG. Since it is being designed from bottom up as a carrier there has to be more hanger space BUT the length is still less than the CDG and I am contesting that dimension, and how much will I be able to expect from a hanger (is it full length like?) which don have it’s waterline dimension even to that of the AG (?) and the least that I’d like to see is the overhangs like that of the CDG, but overall the CVF is a well balanced one and perfect for its size and I’d only love the ADS to be like that, from the drawings seen till now, the ADS do have similarity with the CVF in the ski-jump with its ski-jump base having the most similarity which makes me feel that the designers might have though abt a future catapult coz of which the bow is much broader than what is required for the ski-jump.

What ADS needs is a bit more of stretching to make it in the size of AG and CVF but I hope the IN can make it and if not be able to have the decent STO length on the decks, and by going the way of the Gorshkov bashers, I pretty well don see how ADS wud be able to launch and recover a/c simultaneously where as a Chubby AG aka CVF design (not that CVF is inspired from AG, but surely has got its inspiration from K and U) pretty well can make for that coz of its wast deck.

rather hard to stuf 50 a/c on a 45000 ton displacement CV. not to mention the helos.

That 50 a/c combo for me is for 2 squadrons of fixed winged and others also considering a future option or to be more precise, its like –
2 x 16 (+2) = 36 x MiG-29MKI
6 x Ka-31 Or 4 x Yak-44 AEW
8-10 x Ka-29 (again for max utilization of space)

And that pretty much make ~ 50 a/c combo carrier air-wing.

who told you that pic was the final version of CVF?

and r u sure it wont make it to the CVF design??… if ur sure, then I got my case more strong, as the bargaining power entirely shifts to my side when dealing a REJECTED design. Else British Govt and Thales wud love to squeeze out more bugs from the Indian Navy. But that said I’d only love that design to be the British CVF simply coz it has got its acts together and wud love to see that beauty in future and also hope the RN makes it as their final design.

you come up with the money and i am sure the “damn idiots” will be more than happy to comply to your wishes.

How much do you want ???…. $15 billion or 20 Billion??? …….. we got some USELESS $120Billion as Forex Reserve which is of no active use to the nation! …. And am a strong supporter of Using it up and 10-20 Billion is not gonna make a dent on the Indian economy. Or that Forex reserve don make a $hit except in the war time as many argue w/o knowing even the basic facts. But have they really though how that reserves come into play???….. or why is it like the way it is now??….. again that is the GODLY ADVICE … that reserves started soaring up coz Indian Govt keeps the INDIAN RUPEE devalued and for making that devaluation RBI pulls up all the dollars that circulate and that has not got accumulated to the TUNE of $120billion with the rupee trading even in this OIL budget at nearly 48 to a Dollar. Which means that for the thousands and thousands of Indian rupees pumped don make a mark coz the rupee don have value and the VALUE that’s accumulated as reserve still remain useless. Now if it was the other way round with Rupee gaining value against the dollar, the entire import bill will shrink, which means that India get a major purchasing power and the very first impact in positive will be on the defence forces which also was the first one to get affected when the damn ____ devalued the Indian Rupee which in one go made the forces to starve for funds even though the defence Budget on the paper looked to remain same from the earlier years or at times seemed to increase, but in reality, that budget was buying too little to even fill in the stomach!

So the money isn’t a problem if u got the will, and have u ever though abt what $10-20 billion wud mean for an Indian Naval expansion??…. well I do and always do and that dreaming costs me nothing other than hardening my hatred for all the $astards, but those who scripted the chapter for this part of the world exactly knew what that meant for IOR , but not any worthless $astards who have ruled and ruined India.

the ADS is a perfect carrier for its size and is being designed from ground up as a fixed winger. what’s your fascination with Keiv? from a modularity and logistics POV ADS works better than anything else for the IN.

I’d only love to see it as the perfect carrier for its size, but that don look that way unless the MiG-29’s is replaced with the LCA which again mean that the range and effectiveness is decreased, and I pray and hope that it don get limited to 252 meters as is said now. My fascination abt kiev??……its for its dimensions and that is its length for a STOBAR and its waterline width. And when I said that ’spicing up’, it means a carrier which is of AG’s overall length but more chubbier with good waterline width and length so that hanger is that much accommodative and not the design of the Kiev as such.. But whatever it is I want that damn 252 meters to be increased to the size of Gorshkov. Hopefully u know that even the CGD underwent an increase in its deck length even though it was a CATOBAR and the ADS in its initial avatar is a STOBAR, so I think there might pose some problem

yes. and ofcourse CVs and AJTs have so much in common……………….

I am afraid, u r displaying the same mentality that the Indian MOD and Indian Buffoons eeeerrrrr politicians display. Do u see any commonality between British AJT and a seat for UNSC seat?? Or the AJT and a much better diplomatic relations? Or Westland helos and an International Loan? Or the S-300 and the Korean National security even though it’s the best AD system available?? Or US Counter battery radars and bettering of relation Or the 50 a/c deal that was to go to Airbus being splitted between Airbus and Boeing to US relations ??? Or the first huge Airbus dashing into the Indian civilian market to the Fall of the Soviet Union even though the Tupolev and Ilyushin (and Yak)was the one going to come in.

There are many cases which don have any relations as such but still is bounded and that bounding is what Indians need to understand and integrate it when dealing. Now u must be very well knowing India’s national carrier Air India makes Loss, and at the same time the British Airways heaps up its turnings. But its another fact that the British cleverness and their will made a deal long b4 making the AI to give up major of its seats to the British Airways and what AI do is just wait for customers etc etc ……. There are many such damn things, to overcome which what one needs more than anything else is a sense of Duty to see to it that u do ur part in the nation’s progress whatever ur field maybe. This is sorely lacking in the political hierarchy and the so-called ‘modern’ youths, who is unfortunately gonna be the citizens with whom rests the reins of the nation.

Coming back to the CVF and AJT , the CVF is a British one and so is the AJT and that makes a big relations between them. Let me say, I got 3 kids and I’m making a deal for one of them to makes his flying skill better, and got another one who is very modest and far thinking but his interests lies in open seas but limits him selves taking my financial health into account. But for the aviator Kid am gonna buy a big ticket kit from a manufacturer who has got a sister company who has got a good design which wud make my other Kid to have his needs fulfilled to his own present and future satisfaction. So what do I do??…. I’ll after seeing this fact (after realizing and analyzing my Kids needs) wud bind these two together as a package and make a deal at the same price as was for the single deal that I made earlier. I leave the option to the head of these two concerns to sort it out btn them as to binding of the same with the condition that no binding at the same price or with negligible price adjustment, the talked abt deal is a closed chapter. And they got just a single option where as for me there are a couple of more option to choose from which will also cost me less. But I’d be the winner only if I really cared for my all kids and understood their needs.

considering all factors it is a far better design than AG. will probabaly end up have far better sortie rates compared to AG. and when 252 meters is enough then they dont need to extend it just for the sake of it. yuor arguement is basically that ADS should look like AG or CVF. sorry but this reasoning dosent hold much water.

it has to be a good one than AG else there is no point in it. And u mentioned the sortie rates higher than AG, can u explain me that. At said 252 meters, its much shorter than the AG, which means that maybe the ‘lighter’ take off position too cud be obstructing the landing strip, a thing that AG was critized with. My argument is not abt the looks, Looks are just the overall word that I used and what the LOOKS that I means has its ingredients – the ship must be chubbier that AG, shud have more waterline width and length, an overall length in the range of what the modified AG and CVF will have and displaces 45,000+ tonne with a capacity to carry a max of ~50 a/c …. Hope u understand my reasoning, its just not abt the Looks as such as u have mistaken it to be.

It was from IMDS-2003, June 2003, Saint Petersburg , so hopefully this is the latest version and the earlier one was a pre 2003 design

and the IMDS 2005 is just coming, so y not a thread for it now itself??…

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?p=444716#post444716

I hope and keep my fingers crossed that the ADS don get limited to 252 that is even shorted than the CDG ….

I hops they lengthen it a bit more and yes it has got its ski-jup a bit similar to the CVF … which is wider at the base, which shows (?) that it has been looked for a future catapult option?

Victor,
where did u get that pic from got any more of that models pic??

Karna,
well i never heard that he was a leftinist, but he is an Idiot and lazy is not news

here are some pic for a compariosn to the CVF