The basic story, last I heard, was that of the three CVS’s HMS Invincible is being paid off in 2006. This is a criminal act when you consider that we have just a single LPH and (according to a couple of matelots I was speaking to last week) Vinny’s got at least 15 years left in her.

If the Invincible had some shares in the market, I am pretty sure these comments wud definetely have made the Invincible’s share to rise, good work on part of Invincible’s PR and marketing personnels. And i simply don have any doubt as to what the RN personnel has been saying to the Indian Navy and the idiots of the Indian MOD about the Harrier and the Invincible – its just a plain simple guess which don take much head scratching if one knows the story from the 1980’s.

4 smaller carriers may cost more than 2 large carriers, but having 4 smaller carriers would have the following advantages-

Easier to build, industry capable of this size ship without major ship yard improvements.

Dispersal of forces, one ship out of action=25% loss of capability.

4 carriers=4 areas of operation.

More relaxed training and maintenance possible due to higher number of carriers available for deployment.

And I’ll pretty much agree to this one, coz I have that same feeling, a number of smaller carrier like the invincible will allow for a much better assault on far a superior enemy (like how the wild dogs hunt) as it wud means that the opponent is just ‘rounded-up’. But for that its also necessary that the carrier operate the Harrier type a/c so as for it to carry them in decent numbers. And I say 20 harriers from each carrier, which again wud/shud have their own support ships wud do just fine against the likes of the American carriers.

Sameer

glitter you raise an important point, a new Govt has taken over with more stronger pro russian old guard, the commies won’t mind russian anyway.

I hope the Indian’s over here stop the BS that “The Russian’s will get more contract, now that congress is in power and pro-Russian”

I hope u guys do know that its under that same congress govt that the French lost out to the Bofors, Hermes, Sea Hawk and Seaking came to India, HDW submarines, M2K etc etc came in during that time and if the congress was pro-russi as many want to convey here,. These items wud not have made their way into Indian armed forces. Don forget that it’s the Indian tax-payers money went into to add new life to the worthless westland helos which was attached to the Hermes and also for an International Load, don u guys feel funny, for a loan, what the dumbs purchased was 21 worthless British junk which even the British was very much reluctant to buy as junk when it was sold as scrap metal. SLR, which still continues to be the burden on IA, and not to mention the raygun’s deadly ‘smile’ which many buffoons took to be his real face and jumped into many projects in collaboration whose result was there to see for everyone when the real motive abt the us cooperation was displayed in the form of sanctions etc etc, and so was it the sawing of ‘seeds’ into the Indian military establishment an example of which was out just recently and the earlier 96 period case regarding an IAF retired IB officials seems to have faded from everyone’s mind.

And what this will finally give the ‘blowers’ is that the Russian stuff won the deal coz of political considerations and not coz it was worth, that’s what many guys make it at last. And the hypocrisy at its best can often be heard when saying abt the Russian systems – namely that —– India bought Russian stuff earlier coz it was cheap and was on credit etc etc, but now that Russia has abolished that and have learned to market their wares, these same buffoons say that Russia is charging tooo heavily, and that’s heavy coz for Russian economy and industry, trading in dollars makes profits, where as for India, who used to trade ‘bilaterally’ earlier when started trading in dollars found out that the RUPEE JUST DON BUY ENOUGH DOLLARS for feeding the defence forces!

And lastly I’d like u guys to check up the background of the ministers and the Dr Deputy PM and the Original PM and the list of Ullu Ka Patta’s that the cabinet have so as to make the pic bit more clear and stop the BS regarding the pro-Russian stuffs. But I do have a respect for the current RM, hope he don shatter that too with his post.
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X X X Comments to Moderators in PMs X X X

I am not going to become involved in any flame war! If, you can’t take your political views out of the debate your on the wrong forum. Further, just because I don’t agree with the Gorshkov deal and/or any other Indian Military Program. Doesn’t mean that I am anti-Indian! (or anti-Russian or any other country for that matter!) If, it be know I am a great supporter of India and a strong defense for her people. Its just my opinion that the Gorshkov in not in India’s long term interest. That is solely my opinion and mine alone. If, you have a counter point I would be glad to hear it and debate it point by point if you like? On the otherhand if you want to call names and throw a tantrum like a child. Take it somewhere else………………………….I am personally not interested!

u pretty well know to hide behind the ‘flame war’ shield, good! ….. and its not political views but damn Political FACTS and if u can’t understand that I think its just like “frog in the pot”‘.

And u’ve not yet given any convincible reply for why u think that Gorshkov is not in India’s long term interests at the same time u simply don get the stuff as to how much Gorshkov means to the base of 3rd build-up of the Indian Navy

I believe India does need 3 carriers as soon as possible! That said, its going to be at least 10+ years before any long term solution could be put in place.

India needed 3 carriers long ago, which unfortunately never saw the light. As per my view the perfect number that India needs is 6 carriers of the Gorshkov size by 2020 (which was very much possible and is possible if the determination is there!!!) which means that one each carrier is at the disposal of the 4 naval commands and 2 as reserves or which means that at any damn worst time 2-3 carriers wud be available.

That long-term solutions script began with the Gorshkov but wud have actually begun with the Vyrag, if the political heads had bit more guts and a sense of their duty to the Nation, which unfortunately and not surprisingly was not there. But Gorshkov has made the first step to that long-term solution which will be cemented with the addition of 2-3 more a/c carriers by 2020 (hope so), which makes the IN to have the Gorshkov to fill-in the GAP in operational requirements when any of the other carriers goes to the docks or vice versa.

I don’t like the Groshkov deal for many reasons. First, she not going to enter service much sooner than a new ship built from the ground up.

She is going to enter service in a very maximum of 5 years and if that much time is taken it has its reasons, which the likes of you ignore and that is – she is going to be rebuilt bottom-up to finally make it 65-70 % new!! …… And that means 65-70% new carrier coming out under 4-5 years very well meet the projected periods for a brand new carrier of its size to be built.

Brother, I request you to write down that 65-70% new figure for Gorshkov on a piece of paper and put it straight in front of where ever u look when u get-up so that next time u don loose memory and take this same thing abt the service date, time consuming etc etc.

And I’d like you to print this quote of yours and come up when the first CVF is commissioned to check out how much time a ship of that size needs to get into service. Also you are conveniently ignoring the very basic fact of the time consuming that goes into modifying a design than building a ship based on a new design.

Second, she going to expensive to maintain and operate.

Where u the one to maintained it till now???……. Frankly brother, y don u stfu.

That said, can u give me the yearly expense of the Invincible class her sister in the RN??? …… I’d be waiting for a reply from you on this one for sure.

Third, much new infrastucture will be needed to support her.

That’s the favorite thing that’s propagated by those who don like to see the Indian Navy expand. And the Gorshkov is going to be the base of the Indian Navy’s 3rd Expansion looking to the future after the 2nd, which culminated in start of 10 years of DRAUGHT! Stretching itself now will mean that Indian Navy wud be better off in the future, and if the infrastructure is not there, it has to be built, I wonder, if u did not had a toilet, u never ****? —— in plain terms don make more dumb of urself by these ridiculous theory abt the infrastructure, if its not there it has to be built and not call off the project as is the case with the Indian MOD. That was the PRIMARY reason in addition to the funds that any heavier a/c carrier was not considered, as many idiots say, many ports can’t accommodate it or the water isn’t deep enough – that’s really pity. Frankly r u not ashamed talking like that?

Four, her Airwing will be near obsolescences by time she reaches service.

And ur reason for that obsoleteness can’t be anything more than not just choosing the British Harriers and u can check some facts before u open-up abt the air-wing, that wud be considered as a bit maturity from you, frankly.

Fifth, her Airwing is much to small for a ship of her size and weight. I could go on and on…………………..

Yup a squadron of MiG-29K seems pretty small, but again it’s still much much ahead of what 10-20 Harriers wud have provided. And there is not any real comparison in that. Again that figure of 16 cud be the initial ones as the IN wud have to check out the deck management and I don have any doubt that after the operations starts, IN wud be able to manage more MiG-29K on the deck or as said nearly 24-30 MiG-29K’s. The 16 x MiG-29K is the ‘safest’ minimum air wing that the Gorshkov will accommodate initially.

The Gorshkov is going to be a very expensive short solution and will offer little in power projection to the Indian Navy. Bad Idea…………..

Gorshkov is not a SHORT TERM solution FYI and in any way its going to see or cross 2030, if the British Short term if 15 yrs, fine, its really Short Term, but how wud u rate the HMS Hermes (INS VIRAAT) term – short term or half-short-term???…..coz the Viraat actually was to serve only for 10 years and by which time 2-3 indigenous a/c carries wud have come up to replace it. But that never happened coz of myopic political heads and immaturity.

And yes a carrier that has the capability to transit ‘only’ 1000 miles per day in the IOR with a full compliment of 30 a/c offer little power projection. But that said, it has it limits in projecting power coz the limiting factor is the number of a/c, but for the role it is intended now, it more than makes its case very well. And once the IN starts managing the decks I am sure the capacity wud definitely increase to the said number of 30 a/c, after all all need have to be stored under deck or on the deck.

Alright, lets take the Mig-29K first. You believe it will be in the same class as F/A-22’s, F-35’s, Typhoons, Rafales, Su-30’s, Gripens, and even India’s own LCA?

I forgot to include the Chinese J-10!

now have the F-22, EF, J-10, Grippens have made/will make it to the decks???…. if u have made it to the decks we’ll consider that, now abt the F-35, You can provide me some RCS figures of the F-35 and F-22 and others —- now the Ka-31 may be able to find the F-35 at 35 km from itself which means that the MiG-29K’s wont be totally blind and can use its tracking devices to engage the stealthy fighter, which in anyway wud make up larger RCS the moment it opens up its bay.

Well abt the a/c u mentioned
F-22 – it’s the new godly stuff now which does not mean its not invincible but got pretty lot of advantages cos of its LO, but still has to come to its EMCON-3, 4 & finally EMCON-5 mode to finally fire the amraam which in anyway wud give its position to the opponents radar coz of its own radar emission starting from the 3rd mode. Now the raptor can launch any missile if the 50mile IRST has got any IR missile to support that range. Which means that w/o the radar emission to be caught by the opponents RWR- as the final mode makes the later-on modes make it out of the LPI if am not wrong, so Raptor wud definitely have to go radar silent till the amraam’s range and then illuminate it but then for the raptor to fire its amraam it will definitely come with in the MiG-29K’s IRST’s range and that wud definitely give the MiG’s a chance to fight. Rest is classified … 🙂

F-35, now its is not an F-22 and don have the same class of radar as the F-22 or a 100km range missile which means that it wud definitely come on the MiG-29’s IRST if not the radar and that will give the MiG’s a chance to fight.

EF- its not even in the class of the above two nor do have any exceptional LO, all will depend on the supports available as is the 2 cases above. And that said the MiG’s have 1000Kg extra fuel than the EF to stay up and play longer.

Rafale- Yup same case, but with more goodies than the EF in the field of LO and radar cancellation, but again supports has its role and have a 500 Kg fuel advantage over the EF

Su-30 and LCA – I consider LCA to be inadequate for carrier ops coz of its range and I believe it has got a load to fill the IAF, so it wud be better that LCA is concentrated for the IAF but also that NLCA is fully developed. And these (MKI) 3 a/c will have many systems in common in the avionics department but the radar department will weigh in favor of tt the Su-30MKI > MiG-29MKI> Tejas

The projected Mig-29K would be very effective if available today. That’s the whole point. She won’t be available for another 10 years and the basic Mig design is already 20-30 years old. Equipping the Mig-29 with state of the art electronics and weapons is only so effective. That would be like equipping the Gorshkov with upgraded F/A-18C’s. Don’t get me wrong a very potent aircraft in 2004 indeed! But, would you want to fly the same aircraft against future 5th generation fighters in say 10-20 years from now? Do you really want to fly and fight your Mig-29K against Rafales, Typhoons, Gripens, J-10’s, Su-35’s, F-35, and yes even F/A-22’s.

and ur conclusion for that in all probability is not to mention ut usual quotes … so I let it there for u to update urself and open-up next time. And I wondr how come u guys even tend to make the IN but the Harrier which don have a future even now and how come u guys inducting a European pride in the form of EF??….and then F/A-18 E/F which is inferior in performance to C/D except for the new eye catchy goodies and even after that there is no guarantee that the F/A –18E/F will ever have the guts to face any opponent on one-on-opne basis w/o the help of the Killer awacs and aew.

Now don get me wrong – u know Harrier has to be scrapped w/o any time loss and EF too has to follow that coz the first one has already completed its any usefulness and the second is already getting nowhere and that will save a lot of money which can go to improving the briton’s living standards and a better life for future citizens.

JonS

Gorshkov will mainly be utlisied for interdiction of enemy fighter planes and i doubt IN will venture beyond IAF’s air support. Assuming those two factors, mig-29 or even SHAR with bvr capability will more than be capable of dealing with major threats faced in south asia. This mainly because carrier borne fighter planes used in air defense have only to deal with enemy figher aircrafts carrying light AA missile armament or none at all and also enemy fighter aircrafts in Asuw cant afford get into dogfight with carrier borne fighters because of risk of using up fuel and likely hood of ground based reinforcements to interdict them on the way back.

The main intention of the carrier itself is to venture outside the IAF’s air support, which even now is not anything very comprehensive or exceptional. And squadrons of Mig-29K’s from the Gorshkov wud do much better than what a squadron of Jaguar or Su-30MKI can do taking off from an IAF base – Quick Intervention. And that said I’d have loved to see a fixed winged Yak-44 AEW, not that the Ka-31 wont do the job, but the other looks more

Steve,

Seems like I could’ve jumped the gun a bit here and someone in the MoD, though I can barely believe it, has looked objectively at our carrier utilisation and determined that there really is still enough life left in Invincible to merit her retention in the Fleet.

I’ve heard from one, well placed, RN source that Invincible is going to be kept on in reserve status probably as a backstop for HMS Ocean when she refits. The recent defence statement from MoD is still valid in that there will only ever be one carrier fully operational at any one time, but, having two additional flight decks at varying levels of readiness for deployment in reserve would be VERY good news compared to what we were all staring down the barrel of a few weeks ago!.

I’ll pray with u that British don give up their invincible and let all put the hilarious superiority and cost and operational-effectiveness of the British Invincible and Harriers over the Russian Gorshkov and MiG-29’s, the regular interval dosage of the British advise to the Indian MOD, the media dosage for Indian audience and this thread to a final close once and for all!

Seeings the damage has already been done with the Gorshkov’s acquisition going through it seems a bit pointless for me to pursue this one much further!. I think I have clarify the position I took to correct what you wrote above though!.

And that’s a really a brilliant way to end a debate! Tks Steve for all ur advice to the IN, I never knew that anyone cud be out there who cares for the welfare of the Indian’s so much. But don worry u got a follower over here, who understands absolutely nothing.

I said that, in my estimation, the Gorshkov offered little usable capability in terms of the missions it could accomplish, as an independant unit, over Invincible with her FA2 airwing. Now, with the IN set on the STOBAR course irrevocably, there is little sense in them acquiring Invincible other than as a method of stretching every last bit of service life possible out of the SHAR infrastructure they already have, as an augmentation of the Gorshkov capability until its airgroup becomes fully operational (some years after the vessel commissions naturally) or ultimately as an ASW carrier/LPH.

Tks steve for ur estimation, As an Indian I’m ready to accept Invincible at not more than $100million refurbished, Final Bid! …. Wont her majesty be kind enough to gift that carrier to India as a token of respect for being the Crown Jewel of the never setting Colonial British Empire along with the other goodies that she still keeps.

Are those reasons sufficient to warrant the expenditure of several hundred million dollars?. No, to be honest, I dont think they are.

yes pretty much that’s a very good reason which u can’t see coz u just need to tow away that invincible that’s in front of you.

The only justification that has significant merit there, IMO, is the blue-water ASW role – a mission the IN have to start taking a great deal more seriously if its thinking of competing with the PLAN over the next couple of decades. For that mission though, as I’ve said before, the JMSDF are the ones setting the pace with their DDH escort proposals and the IN would be well advised to look to following that course rather than looking at a full through-deck CVH.

ASW is the secondary one and the primary one being the fleet defence. And yes Gorshkov wud be the first step towards to fulfilling that long cherished basic necessity of the Indian navy!

IN develops its own formula dn not apply the others over here as such Japanese one is good for them and IN got their set of role to play, again India is not an American ‘market’ like what Japan is now or like what once great British Empire is now.

Essentially then, with the development of events being what they are, SHAR FA2 is now very much less of a viable proposition for the IN. Given my recent track record though that probably means they’ll be purchasing them next week!.

whats that?….can u explain to me that in simple english plzzz 😀

where is the english version, cant read anything …

here are some pictures of the sonsa missile which is being used in the cool Russian Robocop PALMA – Love its Looks!

put on a Jacket and black glasses on that Palma – not to leave the Russian Star on the chest – and it wud put to shame any hollywood stuffs that can come up!

looks cool, so ready for action how many of these two classes have been built so far and now operational?

is that carrier meant for amphibious ops or what??.. like the american ones??

look cool… but is that elevator at the very rear a good idea???… it looks a bit odd