JonS,

kashtan is not saving deck space in fact one of the major drawback with kashtan was that it requires extensive deck penetration for storage of 24 missiles below deck. In other barak can be strapped onto anyvessel.

I guess Kashtans are mounted on the superstructure and not on the deck as such sparing the ‘digging’ on the decks as can be sen from where all it has been installed, now that said i don intend to say that Barak is not a compact system either and If am not wrong on Destroyer INS Delhi , Barak is installed not on the decks but on the structure where the guns were placed either removing it or near to it, well not sure though.

And I think u r view and doubt abt the ‘short-comings’ of the Klinok is based on this post that u made, namely the ‘flipping’ of the missile from its vertical launch and the intercept energy

Ever wonder why Russian ships have BOTH klinok and kortik present?- both are short range SAMs with ranges of 9km and 15km respectively – surely one of the two should suffice? Well the fact is that the Klinok doest tip over from its vertical trajectory into the direction of the incoming missile quickly enough and is also a bit slower in gaining required intercept energy. This means that it is not responsive enough to engage missile that are very close to the ship (the raison d’etre of the CIWS).

U might have seen this pic in the earlier post, and I hope that wud have rest ur doubt abt the inability of the Klinok to flip to the direction needed. Actually when I first saw this pic , my concern was, will the missile smash on to the structure if the target happened to be from the front coz of its very low height flipping. But the pic beneath that put to rest that doubt temporarily coz that launchers are at the very extremes of the deck. But still I want some one to clarify if the Klinok goes still higher when catapulted (cold start) before firing its motors and flipping or not.

And here is an article from military parade, abt the Klinok AD system from the Chief Designer of AD Klinok Missile System.
http://www.milparade.com/1997/22/108.htm

Blackcat,

P16’s are about two decades old – IIRC they dont carry 76mm, but 57mm I think.

Check out http://www.milparade.com/security/51/050101.htm for a comparision of modern naval guns.

Regarding spare engines: The real solution to tackling engine problems is not tacking an additional spare along. Redundant power plants, shafts/machinery and propulsor system are the way to go. Systematic maintanence, a sufficiently large and well trained crew to effect decent DC underway is quite helpful.

Regarding more Klubs on the Talwars: There is more to adding VLS than sticking them into a empty space. For instance it is possible that there were top weight limitations against more launchers.

Well I meant the P-16A or the Brahmaputra class and I even mentioned the INS Betwa (P-16A) which was commissioned just recently with that same 76mm SRGM .. and in case ur mentioning the 57mm Russian gun on the Godavari class, that I think again that’s superior to what the 76mm Italian gun offers –

The Italian one give 76mm punch at the rate of 65rds/minute to 8 kms while the Russian 57mm (twin gun mount) gives it’s punch @ 120rds/minute out to 8 kms … and definitely I’d like to have that 57mm twin mount with 120rds/minute rather than the 76mm 65rds/minute Italian one …

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Brahmaputra.html (Italian gun)
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Godavari.html (Russian gun)

and tks for the link that u posted, it was a nice one indeed . But I cud not find the gun that u mentioned or is that A-192M (E) the same one u mentioned?.. but the gun seems to lack in range compared to the 127mm Italian and American ones but got 2 km advantage over the next best in terms of engaging targets at altitude with the range tipping at 18kms and so does the ammo load and the firing rate , but want to see that range increased to atleast 30Km from its current 24km which looks very short.

Kashtan system’s missile is in the class of Barak with a range of 10 kms , and I’d like to take that – mean the addition of two AD systems is to supplement and agument the AD cover of the ships as such and not coz of the need to supplement each other coz of deficiencies as mentioned by you ….

Thats the problem! Two dissimilar missiles are needed for one distinct well defined missions – PDMS.

Of course not, its not the problem! Thats what i mentioned, – that its not the problem of these two that they both make it to the PAD role, which u considers as the Problem of the Kashtan and Klinok.

As I said earlier, I feel the Kashtan is the final last ditch and will only become ‘active’ only when the Klinok is either when the Klinok has expended itself repulsing a very massive raid or penetrated coz of the massive concentration . I think ur completely ignoring the fact that unlike the USN, Russian navy don have carries and fleets for dedicated missions and so they have been stuffing everything possible to defend itself for a massive raid on their capital ships, only on which will u get to see the combo of Klinok and Kashtan (if am not wrong). Which is almost like what Indian navy too has followed with, each ship more of a multi-role one meant to take its task independently or at least fight its way out by engaging the enemy or by the fact of mutual destruction to get out of trouble from an opposing group. And this case – ie multi-role – is more than true unless the navy mentioned has not got huge number of ships like the USN.

So their best was is to carry 8 supersonic missiles (which in anyway will penetrate) and carry whetever amount of AD missiles possible in the available space to stand up to an opposing task force when found in such a situation. And for the same reason I am very much disappointed that IN did not go in for the longer-range missiles or increasing the number of missiles on the Bangalore class

What advantages, if any, acure from having a gun and missile on the same mount. Sure they can save a bit of money by sharing the sensors and the FCS but anything other than that?

and u don think what u mentioned as an advantage even if it as considered by you as small??? ….

The advantage that it gives u is that with that unit, u can still have the gun and missile slaved on to the target that u intend to engage and still fire the missile in the first round and conserve that precious gun ammo for that very final DITCH if the first round missiles takes out the target(s). And even if unfortunately the missile don gets its shot, the gun will be there ready to open up any moment coz of being slaved which means that when the missile crosses the 10-5kms range, w/o any time loss what so ever the gun will open up, which might not be the case when two independent units are ‘watching’ the same target (s) and for the gun to open up when ‘realizing’ that the missiles have indeed been outmaneuvered or outsmarted.

Other missile systems (Barak, RAM, Sea Wolf etc) seem do the job of both Klinok AND Kortik. And a Goalkeeper, Phalanx, Millinieum or AK-630 can do the job of the AO-18KD. Which is simpler and cost effective?

and I think ur basing that coz of Klinok and Kashtan being employed for the same role on the same ships. And ofcourse cost effective is something in which u cant beat the Russians until the Ruble rise against the Dollars, until then there wont be any competition against the Russian cost-effectiveness and Ruble wont rise against the dollar until Russia has set the home turf in order, and for that fund from the international market is needed and the lower Ruble helps the Russians at this moment of time. But the ruble is still comparatively healthy @ nearly 30 Rubles per dollar than the pitiful 48Ruppee per dollar. But the same devalued Ruppee don give advantage to India as it gives advantage to Russia, coz they don have to pay any OIL BILLS to the tune of nearly $20 BILLION and in almost all thing that they need are homegrown or at lest they can produce with some funds and not like India where we need to import. And that the ‘Gain’ that India got after ‘Godly Advise’ in the 90’s, and I doubt any dumbs will ever understand that India as a nation was indeed LOOSING out coz of that ‘Godly Advice’.

Just curious, but if the Klinok/Kortik/AO-18KD combo is as great as you claim it is, then why is the IN so reticent about using it to protect its most precious ships – Viraat and the Vikramaditya? Surely neither cost not space is as much of a issue on these vessels.

and I wonder if Barak was so grr8 , then y IN so long waited for the indigenous Trishul and finally had to give up to the Isreali’s to have the barak. And ofcourse the up gradation of Viraat had its Israeli part too?? … and if someone is hell bend on ‘diversifying’ purchases coz of ‘diversification’, then nothing can be done. The original term lost its value long ago , coz that diversification came in coz of the problem that defence services faced in the early 90’s coz of the Soviet break-up. The ‘godly-advise’ that morons in Indian got from the American Business House to devalue the Rupee made sure that defence services did not get their spares and those bought were simply too costly cos the Indian RUPEE HAD NO VALUE! Not to mention the other social –economic problems that this created, just for an example, the MNC’s payscale was higher and the Govt paid jobs in ‘security’ institutions seems like peanuts, and many ditched it, but tks to tis that the probable MOLES was cleaned up, else the there wud have been many more $astards selling the nation for dollars.

If u say that space is not an issue on Viraat , I’ll agree, but I wont agree to that case on the Gorshkov coz every space on its is precious and I hope that is not wasted ‘digging in’ for missiles but I’d let the Brahmos as an exception, but no AD missiles on the deck.

No we shouldn’t get the Invincible. It would be wise if we instead invested our time and money on our new ADS carriers, they will be far cheaper because they will be built in India and they will be practically brand new. I would like to see a catapult system on the ADS but its highly unlikely that the Americans will provide us with that technology. If indeed we manage to procure the catapult system we can get a 20-25 rafales and the ADS will kick some serious booty.

u talk of cost and in the same sentence talk abt Rafales, pal, plz be careful when putting stuffs …

The fact is RN want to dump it, and they find IN as the perfect place, so what we need to do is, attach the ‘very good deal’ with the dumping and make it a GOOD DEAL!!!

You know… a couple of years ago I wrote to Buff (Hoon) telling him about my misgivings about the retirment of Sea Harrier Here’s a little part of it

i’d be pleased, if i can get that full one atleast in my PM, tks ..

I believe that (at time of writing) 27 of these airframes are serviceable, which of course means they could be sold on (to Thailand or India perhaps?) For a tidy sum. Bearing in mind that whoever buys these Aircraft may in future also require a Platform from which to operate them, Then (to the more cynically minded) it becomes quite obvious why these aircraft are being withdrawn. In short, the sale of these aircraft could also act as an inducement to buying one (or more) of the carriers in the near future (and with the current state of recruitment and retention in the Royal Navy then probably much sooner than expected)

… could this be the ‘GOOD DEAL’ You talk about Black Cat????

Oh! BTW dont forget all those lovely Seaking 5’s that are currently in storage – ripe for use as spares/Attrition replacements or conversion to AEW platforms!

but did u see me mentioning the Harriers anywhere, I simply dont want IN to think of anymore , let alone buying Harriers, what i want is the Carier and not the a/c, no way any Harriers or Seakings ….. and if IN can squeeze service from it till 2015 then its good as that wud give valuable training and also can debut itself as the first Helo carrier in IN, and the Gorshkov and INS Viraat (current carrier), goin on with Viraat hoping to make it till 2015 (wish so) ….. which will use the Harriers, afyer all IN just recently pumped in monet for the Harriers, and that sud be utilised to the extreme, not by buying more British Harrier. The British really hope and did look forward to that, when it was opened recently …..

so what i really want is CVF design with Invincible (and no other a/c whatso ever!)

and from Steve he had earlier said that the Invincible wud come for around $200 million or something …. don know its dollars of British pounds, if its pounds then it wud be more than that …

I hope you are aware of the Russian tendency of arm twisting; they dont allow you to pick and choose – its either all or none approach. Shtil is probably one of those deals; it is tied to something the IN desperately needs.

and its ot fair to single out Russians on this one, as every one else does the same, but u think that Barak made it with all ‘morals’ well i don think so….. many india say very much abt how Isreali’s helped us ans are helping us with Trishul, if Isreali’s really were ‘helping’ us it should have been Trishul entering the Service for which the Indian Navy so long waited , and not Barak!

but i can bet if it had been with the Russians , it definetely wud have been the Trishul entering the service with the Indian Navy and not their Klinok …

Ever wonder why Russian ships have BOTH klinok and kortik present?- both are short range SAMs with ranges of 9km and 15km respectively – surely one of the two should suffice? Well the fact is that the Klinok doest tip over from its vertical trajectory into the direction of the incoming missile quickly enough and is also a bit slower in gaining required intercept energy. This means that it is not responsive enough to engage missile that are very close to the ship (the raison d’etre of the CIWS) .

take a look at the pic , is this what u mentioned??? …. and if am not wrong, the Klinok, Barak, SM-(?) and Aster too have kind of one missile 3 sec firing time …. and can u tell more abt the required intercept energy that u talked abt?? ….. is that coz that it don seem to have the kind of booster that can be seen on the SM, Aster, 9M311 ??? …… but then neither the barak do have it and in that case it too must be sluggish in gaining the energy when fired

here is a launch from Kriov … and other missiles – Aster, Kashmir (SA-N-11), ESSM …

Blackcat,

My orginal comment meant that I would have preferred (very mildly I might add as I dont consider the main gun a major issue for the P-15A) a larger caliber; irrespective of the manufacturer of the weapon. I would have been equally pleased with either the OTO 127mm or the Russian A192M, both are excellent weapons.

k thats fine, but if at all that is intended for 12 x P-17 which is also meant for NGFS (?) then i really doubt its worth in that role with 76mm, 65 rds/min to 4.4n miles (8 kms) range … am quoting it from the BR’s P16’s specs which mentions these specs …

BTW, The latest 76mm super rapide can shoot at 120 rounds per minute. It also has the advantages that it is well supported now and will be well supported in the future (spares,upgrades and uptodate ammunition), comes from a reliable manufacturer, has low weight and small ship impact. You cant go far wrong with the super rapide for a frigate.

but it don seems to have found its place in BR’s site, also whats the spec of the SRGM that INS Betwa has got, they have not changed any specs for that gun, if that’s the case, its still using that old gun with 65 rds/min?? ….. and can u give me any link to the guns manufactures site?

Regarding Italian weapons procurement: My view is that the present regime is more likely to bend backwards rather than tilt towards Italian manufacturers. This also applies to an extent to Swedish and German armaments companies. Companies from these nations will have to be demonstrably head and shoulders above other competitors to be selected under the present dispensation.

and that applys to only those who have a sense of shame and not to shameless pigs …. and my view stands the same…. regarding the “emonstrably head and shoulders above other competitors” that u mentioned, i really don think thats the case taking into view the kind of attitude the Gov have been persuing to engage the ‘biggies’ … so that finally comes down to ‘orthless political support’ in the form of ‘supports’ .. and nothing more … and the idiots in the higher ups in the Indian Gvt take that at face value.

Changing engines at sea: Swapping GT is doable but still a major dockside operation. You simply cannot swap a diesel engine without extensive time at the manufacturers. USN concerns with extended tours of duty at far off stations hardly reflect the situation in the IN.

yo i agree to that, the main intention cud be that in case of an engine problem, Unkil’s ship can go to any of their ‘allies’ SY and do the changing w/o an added cost if it had to be flown or shipped to the place where it is being changed, in that case definetely its a very good one …. but that said ur again looking inwar and not expanding the thoughts, we can’t just say that this is enough, we have to make provision for future needs and this definetely fits that future needs ……

If you know how to swap a major marine powerplant underway than contact me; I can make you a very rich man .

Sssshhhhhhhh …….. Actually ………………. its a pretty BIG secret: D 😀 😀 😀 ……… 😮

and I’ve changed my plan for a ‘change of heart at the seas’ 😮 …. look above … 😀

Regarding the proper utilisation of the fore section of the talwar I am afraid I am not qualified enough to comment on that. There may be some space available for growth in them. I do not know enough to second guess the Indian and Russian naval architects.

but i always felt like that looking to the underutilisation of the sapce on the deck, and i can’t digest the fact that it can only accomodate just 8 cell VLS ….. thats simply out of my mind … 😡 ….. take a look at this pic of INS Trishul, whenever I see this I feel like stuffing more VLS on to that vacant spaces on the deck … 😀

and am pretty sure from the looks of the launched hull of the P-17 that it too is gonna look this way and from the specs of P-15A, that too don’t look quite different from this ‘attitude’

Alepou 340MB

that was a nice pics man, can u post more of that …. and here are few more ..

Oh No Ja ….

i did not meant to throw some flith on the submariners, but just on that general dirty stuff abt us, thats all. Anad frankly no offense meant too , just happened that the original post happened to be yours, but cud not held back from posting the dirty american bussiness tycoons policies …