Well if someone believes that nonsense yes.
Yes but less control authority either…
You aren’t going to manoeuvre half as effective as you can at SL and will require AB inputs much more than at SL!
Not necessarily. IF you want to include large portions of supersonic flying then yes, otherwise I doubt it.
This would require adequate data about flight hours and the number of aircraft. At best for every year since its operation or for a single year say 2009 or 2010.
@ww,
we were talking about subsonic range as such and the F-22 will often enough require AB as well, especially when manoeuvring.
-the F 22 comsumption is no doubt “tres importante” vs Rafale; after all, one of the two F 119 “delivrent chacun pres de deux fois la poussee de M 88”, to qoute the A&C, but the SFC of the F 119 is, at least, as low as M 88 SFC (unless you consider the French angine superior to the F 119 :D); also, the F 22 has almost twice the fuel capacity and is always in “clean” configuration. As I already posted, with internal fuel, the Rafale has a combat radius (A/A) of ~ 400 Nmiles, while an F 22 ~ 600 Nmiles (subsonic both).
Twice the fuel is worth nothing if your aircraft also consumes twice as much and is twice as heavy! I doubt that a 50% range difference can work out like that. Even if we assume a 0.8kg/kg/h SFC figure for both engines. The F119 provides about 11500 kg dry, the M88-2 5100 kg. Internal fuel load of the Rafale C is 4750 kg with 8200 – 9386 kg for the F-22 (depending on which source you want to believe). Empty weight of the Rafale C is 9500 kg vs 19700 kg for the F-22.
Doing an oversimplified calculation (only engine fuel consumption at full mil thrust at S/L):
Rafale C: 35 min
F-22: 26.74 – 30.6 min
Fuel fraction (empty weight plus fuel only):
Rafale C: 33.33 %
F-22: 29.4 – 32.27 %
@ww,
this was meant wrt Captor not the APG-65 ;). And 3 times 111 km would be 333 km, wonder why the APG-77 is stated to offer detection ranges up to 240 km only:eek: APG-79 must offer a greater range than the APG-77! Well simplistic anyway as exact figures aren’t known, but you should/could get the clue what I’m aiming at.
Edit:
I think that the European examples give a better clue about range increase between MSA/PESA vs AESA. The range increase is stated to be ~50% for the AESA vs the same radar with MSA/PESA (few adjustments). That’s certainly more representative for “contemporary” designs than comparing an entirely different 10-20 years older radar to a newly designed AESA.
@Taygivay,
we have to wait for more details about why the pilot couldn’t land on the carrier. Maybe there was a malfunction of the SMS/jettison system, but who knows.
Btw, though I don’t want to go into to much detail in order to avoid derailing the thread, there are some 250+ Typhoons in service right now. It’s not known how many of them are available for flight operations but there should be a great enough number. You have to take into account that the Typhoon fleet sustains a 24/7 QRA commitment 52 weeks a year in 5 countries plus the Falklands and has already provided QRA for the Baltic states and Albania. That’s certainly something Rafales aren’t burdened with. That’s just to put things into the right perspective, because it’s easy to say hey we deployed our aircraft to Afghanistan etc., but ignoring the not permanent commitment for AD. Typhoons are operated from 10 different air bases within 6 countries, that’s a difference in contrast to the Rafales operating from 3 air bases (plus the CdG). You have more aircraft, but they are also more widely spread and each customer has to conduct separate training etc., which in turn means fewer resources for additional deployments next to the training deployments already conducted by the different airforces. Particularly the RAF and AMI have been quite busy participating in various exercises, while the Lw and EdA have rarely participated in exercises out of their home countries. It much depends how an operator uses its aircraft.
This crash will certainly have no impact on any export campaigns, except a serious design flaw has caused it, but it doesn’t sound like that. 4 aircraft in 9 years isn’t that much and at least 3 were lost due pilot error.
It’s close to the Typhoon fleet’s total which shows that our
planes are used more intensively.
I wouldn’t bet on that the Typhoon fleet amassed 50000 flight hours in September 2008! And Typhoon formally started to enter service throughout 2004, in contrast to the Rafale which is in service since 2001. Almost a three years difference.
http://www.eurofighter.com/media/news0/news-detail/article/eurofighter-typhoon-flight-milestone-50000-hours-and-climbing.html
And this latest accident could have happened during a training mission as well.
What year did the Captor become operational vs the APG-73, because the APG-79 is credited with a 300% improvement in range over that(the- 73), and that’s a pretty contemporary design so to speak.
First there is a nice little power point presentation stating 2-3 times the detection range for the APG-79 vs the APG-65/73. The APG-65 was introduced in the early 80s, the APG-73 in the ~mid 90s and the APG-79 in 2006. They are a decade+ apart from each other, hardly contemporary. And just for the record the Captor’s stated tracking range is stated with >160 km against a fighter sized target vs. a 80 km detection range of the APG-65. Hence already 2+ times the detection range! Can’t be that far off from the APG-79 then. Good luck in tracking a fighter sized target at 480+ km with the APG-79:dev2::rolleyes:
This is untrue. Compared with a similar size/power MSA, the AESA array is generally credited with having 3x the detection range, due to much higher sensitivity, and more efficiency. It also offers significant advantages in jam resistance, modes of operation, etc….
Exactly what has been covered on the previous page. 3 times the detection range is against much older radars, not contemporary designs! It’s a misconception that AESA radars offer a 3 times longer detection range in comparison to late generation MSA radars.
@Mercurius,
agree with most of what you said, but a minor detail, AESA’s use phase shifting as well in order to steer the beam. That inevitably causes looses at higher gimbals on both PESA and AESA.
AESA has potential advantages wrt range such as no looses from transmitter to antenna as you already explained and the ability to focus the beams which may allow the radar to use less power in certain conditions. Antenna gain is certainly important as well, though aperture and power output matter as well.
One thing some people (not aimed at you) often forget when they compare the ranges of MSA to old AESAs that those 2-3 times longer range is measured against often 20+ years old radars. That leads to the false conclusion that an AESA automatically offers a 2-3 times greater range than contemporary MSA radars. Dividing tasks etc. can also limit the performance, everything requires its trade offs.
Geolocation of radar emitters isn’t that easy, particularly not that of moving emitters! And that’s true for any system whether it’s an ALR-94 or Spectra or whatever system.
@Maus,
true, that doesn’t change the fact that the F-22 isn’t that expensive that it couldn’t be bought in larger numbers. It’s a bogus argument that the price alone has terminated the procurement of further F-22s.