Scorpion82@maus & snafu,
well great to see that the F-35 is an affordable super fighter. A few F-22s for the current price tag wouldn’t hurt.
Scorpion82It’s exaggerated to state the US couldn’t afford more F-22s, ending production was more a political move.
Scorpion82We still don’t know how well the different types performed in the various trials!
And the lowest bidder alone may not cut it either, ToT etc. are all important factors, next to politics.
Scorpion82The other aircraft aren’t using stealthy datalinks, which is why they’re more vulnerable to detection than is the F-22. As far as AMRAAM guidance, one F-22 can be the silent shooter, while getting third party targeting from his wingman. Or like I said, they can use their radar and still get a shot off outside IRST range.
How stealthy is it? How stealthy are its comms? If the F-22 is allegedly capable of targeting something on base of its comm emissions, well we can assume others can do so as well. DASS does indeed cover frequency bands down to a mere 100 MHz, with comms and DLs working in between 1XX and 1XXX MHz frequency ranges. So we keep it simple as you guys appear to be used too and claim the Meteor is on its way long before the F-22 can launch its AMRAAM and targeting is done by the emission detection. Quite easy exercise to geolocate a moving target accurately while dedicated ELS already require several seconds or sometimes even minutes to gather an accurate location on a ground based emitter. And for all we may also assume that the sensor Raptor is just jammed and can’t provide any data. Things can be so easy if not bothering with details, well I should do it regularly instead of wasting time to elaborate on technical feasability and common sense.
Scorpion82@Teer,
I see that my reasoning appears to be realistic. A Rafale or Typhoon would certainly be a good addition to the IAF as far as the medium fighter is concerned. Is there any trend wrt the mission priorities? Is the IAF placing more emphasis on AA or AG or weight them equally?
Scorpion82If the Rafale or Typhoon is using comms/datalinks, the ALR-94 can still detect them passively, and provide targeting info. The F-22 can use LPI to spot them at much greater distances than their IRSTs can spot the F-22, get the first shot off(and take a risk of detection). Even if their RWRs alert them that something’s out there, the F-22 can still stay far enough away, that neither their radar nor IRST can provide a firing solution. It’s exact location will still be a mystery since it won’t be continuously emitting, and can scan very quickly for target updates, and then go silent again.
Well good luck in geolocating and IDing the comms and who says other aircraft couldn’t do the very same? It doesn’t work one way only. What’s going to update the AMRAAM if the F-22 just turns away and seeks the distance? As said there are tactics which can overcome issues as such as explained above, but its not like others don’t have any options at hand. The F-22 is unquestionably the most capable aerial fighter in service today, but that doesn’t mean it’s undefeatable or that it will achieve the very same kill ratios it can score against an F-15C or F-16C. That it will still be dominant and will win the vast majority of the BVR encounters is out of question (at least for me).
Scorpion82Would be interesting what the IAF really requires and where its priorities are. The MMRCA is said to be a replacement for the ageing MiG-21 fleet, but I somehow see as a gap filler for the MiG-21 until the Tejas is operational in numbers and as a real replacement for the IAFs Jaguars, MiG-27s, MiG-29s and Mirage 2000s somewhere after 2020-2025.
As a raw MiG-21 replacement it doesn’t need a Typhoon, Rafale or F/A-18E/F, not even a MiG-35. The F-16IN or Gripen NG would be better suited IMO, primarily on cost grounds. But as stated I somewhat doubt that the IAF seriously intends to replace the MiG-21 with the MMRCA in the first place as it would make Tejas entirely redundant (or the other way round as you want). As a medium fighter (which the MMRCA designation suggests anyway) it should fit in between the Tejas and Su-30MKI and in such a case I don’t see much speaking for an F-16IN or Gripen NG regardless of whether they are “better” than a Tejas Mk2 or not.
It’s actually one of the most interesting competitions going on anywhere around the world and not because it is the largest one, but because of the variety of types competing the significant differences between them. The IAF requirements aren’t really clear for the outside observer. What are they really looking for, where are their priorities? We’ve heard so many rumours over the past month I actually have no idea which aircraft will make it, everything is still open albeit some rumours are more consistent. Particularly funny is the part that virtually every contender claims to have fared well during the field trials, how does this add up with the claims that 4 of them (at least partially) failed?
Scorpion82Because the Rafale and Typhoon would be easier to spot at long range, than the F-22.
That’s no explaination. They would be spotted earlier anyway, regardless of AWACS or not. And if the AWACS can’t detect the F-22 anyway as is your (and others) conviction it is of no help for a Typhoon or Rafale anyway. Hence loosing it won’t be a lose for those fighters as they wouldn’t be able to rely on it anyway when encountering the F-22. The other way round the F-22 may loose SA if it doesn’t want to use its radar while the opposition does the same. The former still have EO/IR sensors, the F-22 doesn’t. An F-22 without support with radar silent and the enemy not radiating as well is a blind hercules and that’s it.
Scorpion82@Teer,
theory is one thing praxis another!
Scorpion82Well could, could not. No one knows for sure and that’s the point. If LPI doesn’t work out the way as the fanboys believe and the F-22 is forced to keep its radar silent, to not betray its position and the enemy does the same the F-22 has no means of acquiring the target. Of course it is possible to overcome such issues with tactics such as one aircraft in the formation using its radar and had off targets to the others etc. But that’s not the point here.
Your response just shows that you have no clue here either, albeit you make tall claims.
Scorpion82They used the AN/ALR-94 to sniff for emissions and what if the enemy keeps his radar on stand by? What if the F-22 uses its own radar? You can’t say the F-22 will remain undetected in any circumstances or that it will be able to detect the enemy at any time, in all conditions. The article in fact says the F-22’s were silent (radar off/stand by) and that they used the ESM to target Rafales which had their radar active. What if the Rafales don’t activate their radars, how will the F-22 be able to detect it without relying on external sources or not lighting up its own radar?
Scorpion82What kind of nonsense are you talking about Jessmo? For this guns only exercise between Rafales and F-22s the conditions were fair and actually set up by the USAF.
If the Americans are so keen why didn’t they offer the French or others for that matter a full DACT starting at BVR within a scenario attacker/defender, maybe switching roles after the first few sessions? Is it because they know that no ones has a chance anyway or do they fear that the other side may exploit ways to counter F-22s or gather information the Americans are gathering themself?
Scorpion82French pilots?
No just American pilots flying F-15Cs and F-16Cs.
Scorpion82Well fine for them, but how often have they tried it? Where the F-22 pilots prepared for that, how were those evaluations designed etc.? Typhoons also scored a 49:1 kill ratio during an exercise. 2 examples defeated an 8 ship formation of F-15Cs, 8 Typhoons were conducting a combined air defence exercise against 26 “threat” aircraft and won, without looses… What does it tell us, with virtually no details known?
And how are the results against F-15Cs and F-16Cs flown by those aggressors representative for the potential results against other types such as the Rafale, Typhoon or Su-35 to name the probably most challenging types until other VLO designs become available?
And as I asked above, why would a Rafale or Typhoon be more disadvantaged without AWACS support in comparison to the F-22?
Scorpion82@ww,
you are mixing up all kind of claims from various occasions and try to sell them to us as “it was during that very specific exercise”. Who said those various tactics were tried out during this very exercise and how is it “realistic training” if they have done so?
@over G,
does the cobra translate into a higher sustained or easily applicable briefly high AoA in a combat situation? Does it matter that a Rafale has virtually flown the cobra as well? No it doesn’t if it can’t be used in actual combat. Heck even a Draken flew some kind of cobra was it able to point its nose as well as newer fighters in the normal manoeuvring fight? Maybe you should stick with what I said rather then trying to bring in bogus arguments which have nothing to do with what I said!
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