Scorpion82Where is it stated that the Rafales has fought in a “degraded mode”? Let alone that such a statement is dub in itself, the only thing which has been said is that a range limit was imposed on the MICA missiles which is common practise during exercises to hide the true performance of the weapons. Is doesn’t tell us anything about the true nature of these DACTs.
Scorpion82Price has everything to do with performance. The claims to price premiums vanish with gaps in performance.
A product’s worth in the eyes of customer does NOT take into calculation how much it cost you.
Agreed, but I doubt that the price had an impact during these trials, though it will have an impact on the overall competition.
Scorpion82my guess is Rafale for one of them. i dont know how they will meet the price requirements if India demands the lower bidders. also the Rafale didnt even show up for evaluations. it has performed below par because it didn’t even perform at all.
Is it so? I thought the Rafales actually were in India for those trials and what has the price to do with the performance?
Scorpion82Just found this:
Eurofighter’s mission in India: Making the shortlist
Ajai Shukla / New Delhi February 18, 2010, 0:06 ISTOn Monday, two Eurofighter Typhoon fighters of the Luftwaffe —- the German Air Force —- took off from the Laage Air Base in Germany on probably the most important mission the plane has flown.
After touching down in Bangalore today, they will prepare for flight trials by Indian Air Force pilots, which begin on Monday. The outcome of those trials in Bangalore, Jaisalmer, and then Leh, will be crucial in determining whether 126 Typhoons, and possibly more later, will sport the roundels of the IAF.
The IAF has already tested four fighters in this six-aircraft, $11-billion contest to select a Medium Multi-role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA): the American F/A-18 Super Hornet and the F-16IN Super Viper; the French Rafale; and the Russian MiG-35. On the heels of the Eurofighter will come the last contender, Sweden’s Gripen NG.
After the flight trials are over, IAF sources tell Business Standard, the competition will narrow to three or four contenders; two fighters, they say, have already performed below par. Then, the commercial bids will be opened; Ministry of Defence (MoD) procedure mandates that the lowest bidder wins the contract.
Synchronised perfectly with the start of its flight trials, the Eurofighter Typhoon has transported a flight simulator to Defexpo 2010, running in Delhi from February 15-18. In that simulator, over the past three days, key Indian decision-makers have personally experienced the aircraft. These include Defence Minister A K Antony; the IAF chief, Air Chief Marshall P V Naik; the pilot overseeing flight-testing, Air Commodore Rakesh Dhir; and a host of VIPs, including Anand Mahindra.
Eurofighter’s next splash will be during Exercise Indradhanush, in October, when a group of Royal Air Force Typhoons fly into India, participating for the first time ever in the joint RAF-IAF exercise. That is expected to grab media attention exactly at the moment when the MoD is finalising its decision on which fighter to buy.
“The Eurofighter particiation in the exercise is not part of a plan,” Bernhard Gerwert, the boss of Eurofighter GmbH, told Business Standard. “The Luftwaffe is sending the fighters for flight testing; the Typhoons in the exercise are from the RAF. But, this does reflect Eurofighter’s pan-European nature.”
Eurofighter’s careful public relations strategy reflects the skill with which it has handled its MMRCA campaign. Unlike some of the contenders, which spent millions of dollars in promoting their fighters in India and participating in air shows for years, Eurofighter only launched its India campaign in 2008. The Typhoon itself was first displayed in India last February, at the Aero India 2009 in Bangalore.
Only French manufacturer, Dassault, which has offered the Rafale, has been more restrained. The Rafale has never been displayed in India.
Eurofighter’s campaign has also been enhanced by a growing list of sweeteners. Having earlier offered full “partnership” for India in the Typhoon programme, Defexpo 2010 has seen a ramping up of parent company, EADS’ engineering centre in Bangalore.
Gerwert elaborates, “We are shifting Research and Development (R&D) out of Germany and into India. The Airbus Engineering Centre in Bangalore currently has 120 local engineers, who carry out civilian R&D for the airliner business. By 2012, this will have stepped up to 400 engineers for civilian R&D and 200 engineers working on military programmes.”
Gerwert clarifies that this does involve the politically sensitive transfer of jobs to India. Each extra engineer will be a new hire.
http://www.business-standard.com/india/news/eurofighter%5Cs-mission-in-india-makingshortlist/386053/
So have the Russians sent the MiG-35 demonstrator (No.154)? And which 2 fighters were those performing sub par?
Scorpion82Could we please cease the Bulgarian discussion? Thanks!
Some news which might have been lost:
16 February 2010 – Eurofighter: A Time To Shine
MMRCA (Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft) testing begins this month for Eurofighter Typhoon in India as speculation rises as to who may win the new fighter jet deal to supply the Indian Air Force with 126 aircraft.
The Hot and High trails which kicked off last year with Boeings F/A-18 are taking place in Bangalore, over Jaisalmer in the Rajasthan desert under hot weather conditions and in the Leh area of Ladakh – Ladakh meaning “land of high passes” for high altitude testings. After having to wait patiently for our turn, finally February sees Eurofighter Typhoon in the hot seat, with the opportunity to put our highly advanced and robust capabilities to the test.
The trials will be heavily supported by the German Air Force, who will provide both the aircraft and appropriate air and ground crews. Two aircraft set off from Rostock/Laage on Monday destined for Bangalore. Eurofighter is excited to be participating in the trials and with a proven hot weather customer, Saudi Arabia, already in service, now is as good a time as any to shine under the Indian sun.
http://www.eurofighter.com/po_bl.asp?id=175
see also
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/article-view/release/112377/india-to-begin-eurofighter-in_flight-evaluation.html
Scorpion82Why is it going there?
Are the getting ready to wheel it through the streets at the May Day parades?Sorry I had actually for a silly moment forgotton it now flys, will they fly it over the parades?
Thanks for answer a few posts down! 🙂
No it’s going to Zhukovski near Moscow the Russian flight test centre.
Scorpion82If am honest i didn’t actually read everything he said so fair point. I was having a bit of a bad day this morning.
I surprised it takes 2 squadrons to do QRA. i thought it would only take 4 aircraft and personell? 2 aircraft ready to go and 2 spare?
I’m not to sure why the RAF didn’t stretch the tornado F3 out more for QRA to say 2012 and just use typhoon for multi role training. oh well thats the RAF/MOD for you.
You have to take into account that these squadrons have other commitments as well. The No.3(F) sqn has declared FOC in the AA role on 1st Arpil 2008 and the No.11(F) sqn declared operational readiness n the AG role on 7th July 2008. The units have to train for these roles and must be ready to deploy if tasked. The OEU has just few aircraft for opeval and the OCU is buisy with training RAF and RSAF pilots and ground personal. Add to that the Falkland commitment which is shared by the Coningsby based squadrons and the aircraft unavailable due R2 upgrades and maintenance and the number of aircraft remaining looks pretty slim.
Scorpion82Are typhoons providing northern QRA yet? I thought there was only 1 squadron of Tornado F3 at Leuchars after the draw down.
Perhaps a bit of lenience can be shown to new members and not jump right on them if they get it wrong. This probably puts them off posting again. This forum could do with some new imput and topics.
No they aren’t. No.6 sqn will probably stand up soon, but is not expected to take over before early next year IIRC.
Scorpion82Source: newspaper “Sight”
Author: Maria Ivanova
18:25 Published: 15/02/2010, 18:25Fifth-generation fighter once again rose into the air
In Komsomolsk-on-Amur Aircraft Production Association airfield, which is part of holding “Dry”, the third flew in the latest fifth-generation fighter. Prospective complex tactical aviation safety program implemented in full and without comment. After a few more tests in the Far East, the aircraft will go to Moscow, and fighting application will work out in the Volga region.
In the Far East in KnAAPO Dzemgi continuing flight testing Russia’s new fighter aircraft – a promising front-line aviation complex aircraft (PAK FA) T-50.
“On Saturday in Komsomolsk-on-Amur hosted the third flight of the fighter. The flight program fully implemented. All units and aircraft systems worked without any problems”, – told a source in the military-industrial complex.
He clarified that the first flight of the fighter was held two weeks ago, on January 29, in Komsomolsk-on-Amur. And he and the second flight lasted about an hour. At the second test flight of the fighter has already gone in the “new look” – it was painted in the colors of the Air Force Russia – gray and white camouflage broken.”From the looks of this car in the air even more swift and terrible,” – noted then source in the military-industrial complex.
In the future PAK FA is waiting for a few more test flight in Komsomolsk-on-Amur, then the plane moves to Zhukovsky near Moscow in the Gromov Flight Research Institute, which will have the bulk of flight tests.
Tests fighter for combat application also will be held at the State flight test center of the Defense Ministry in Akhtubinsk (Astrakhan region).
Recall, February 11, Chief of General Staff of the Armed Forces of Russia Nikolay Makarov said that Russia’s fifth generation fighter aircraft will have “almost human intelligence,” and the price will be cheaper than the American counterpart. Also, according to him, the fighter “has a number of other advantages.
Newspaper, which sought to find out how arranged Russia’s newest fighter aircraft, has already stated that Russia’s new aircraft for at least the first stage will be equipped with radar N050 (improved version of the Radar Irbis-E Su-35) of millimeter waves. Besides the main airborne radar aircraft is equipped with an additional radar centimeter. Application of additional radars, spaced from both the primary position and in the frequency range, will not only increase the noise immunity and combat survivability design, but also significantly reduce the visibility of technology neutralizes the enemy planes.
According to some foreign experts, the PAK FA will be equipped with the new optical-location station OLS-50M, which would gain an advantage in detecting stealth air targets and can become the primary sensor in a dogfight with the F-22 and F-35.
Among the requirements for flight performance indicates supersonic speed in cruising flight, with the besforsazhnom mode engines.
T-50 also has the maneuverability at subsonic speeds and increased maneuverability at supersonic.This affected the aerodynamics of the aircraft, equipped with very complex with lots of wing thrust surfaces, allowing to maintain control of supercritical regimes.
As experts, characterized PAK FA will be multi-functionality (ability to solve problems defeat both air and ground targets in all weather and time of day), maneuverability, low visibility in the optical, infrared and radio wavelengths, supersonic cruising flight mode, the ability to fly and land, using land runways 300-400 meters.
In general, evaluating the test results, honored test pilot Sergei Bogdan, piloted the plane, said: “During the flight we had a primary assessment of controllability of the aircraft, engine and major systems, the aircraft made a full-time cleaning and landing gear. It is working well in all stages of our intended flight program. They are easily and comfortably manage.
The general director of company “Sukhoi” Mikhail Pogosyan in circulated a press statement said that “the plans of the company” Sukhoi “and is further developing the program PAK FA, on which we will work with Indian partners.”
Prime Minister Vladimir Putin, who described the first flight of the fighter as “a nice event,” promised that “in 2013 should do the first batch (PAK FA) in the Armed Forces, and in 2015 already begin serial purchases.
In turn, the head of the Defense Ministry Anatoly Serdyukov has expressed hope that all the time to supply the first batch of aircraft will be met.
MM wave radar as primary radar? This wouldn’t be X-Band. :confused:
Scorpion82.
What happens when you get a yank 4th gen plane to jettison its missiles due to your SAM fire?
Nothing because jettison of stores is limited to fuel tanks and AG stores. AAMs are usually not jettisoned.
Scorpion82The main cause for rising costs and delays with successive aircraft generations is largely owed to the fact that aircraft are becoming more and more complex. More stuff and technology is crammed into the airframes, regardless of the role(s). Look at the F-22 it is a relative inflexible and specialised aircraft, but yet very expensive. The same could be said about the Typhoon in its current form. And there are many examples in the past where a specialised aircraft was even more expensive than a flexible multirole fighter. The F-14/15 and F-16/18 pop into mind. The former were specialised and expensive, while the later were more versatile but still cheaper.
Designing and operating several different specialised types is going to cost you much more in comparison to fewer more versatile types. While the specialised type might be a bit cheaper in the first place you need many more different types and more aircraft to fill the requirement. If you sum up the total costs you will realise that fewer, more expensive, but also more flexible aircraft are going to be much cheaper in the end. This assumes aircraft of a similar technology level.
Regarding the multinational programmes the problem is that all partners have to reach an agreement, this is usually subject to lengthy discussions and delays. Everyone wants his share and this is often counter productive when cost effectiveness is concerned. The Typhoon could have been cheaper if not every partner would have its own assembly line or if at least manufacturing responsibility isn’t spread all over the partner nations. For example let the engine being produced by a single country, instead of all countries producing some parts is certainly cheaper. So you lose many costs savings achieved due a larger production run and while individual costs for each nation are certainly a bit lower with regards to R&D the more everyone wants to be involved to retain its expertise and capabilities in various fields the more expensive it will be and many of the potential savings are gone. This is a political/industrial problem.
Your idea about using existing components in a first batch followed by new components in a second batch sounds good in the first place, but is problematic. If you are going to use existing components you are forced to design a new aircraft around them, which might not be compatible with the requirements for the new aircraft. It’s even more expensive in the end as you have to test the existing equipment in a new environment (airframe/systems) and new equipment as well. The lack of fleet commonality or later retrofits would be expensive. Due the complexity of modern combat aircraft a new approach is taken by introducing limited capability aircraft and develop them continuously until the specified configuration is reached. There is no way around this unless you want to wait even longer.
Scorpion82Depends on the cost, fly-away, unit programme cost etc. T1 examples costed 53 mln €+VAT, T2 ~55 mln €, T3A is reported 58-59 mln €. This is the fly-away price for the aircraft only.
There were several reasons for the delays, most of them were caused by politics. When the programme was launched in 1983 it was a 5 nation programme. It took ~2 years before the French finally left and the programme was able to move on. The Spanish took a while before committing, while Germany, Italy and the UK agreed on the launch of the development phase on 16th May 1988, the official start was 23rd November 1988. Following the uncertainties about the programmes future after the end of the Cold War and Germany’s reunification Spain and Italy temporarily suspended development work. The programme came to a halt in 1992, before the reorientation phase was launched. It was decided to delay the entry into service from 1997 to 2000 in order to stretch the funding. On top of that there was that delay of the first flight due difficulties with the FCS and the prototypes were completed later than expected as well and the flight test programme moved on at a slower pace than expected (mainly due the shortage of spares and aircraft availability). After total numbers were renegotiated it was planned to launch series production in early 1997, but Germany and Italy didn’t clear the funds and the start slipped another year.
Some manufacturing issues at the beginning delayed the first flight of a production aircraft and deliveries slipped by another year. Tranche 1 production was stretched due the delays and as the British blocked the T2 contract signature, T3A was signed later than planned and T3B is much in doubt nowadays. These delays caused a slower introduction into service and the fielding of new capabilities and technologies.
Scorpion82Honestly this topic is long covered and cleared, no need for another thread.
Scorpion82From Paralay. It’s educated guess, not much more.
Thanks I thought so. Slowly but surely it gets on my nerves all those data presented, while just being guess work and that note being presented in the right way.
Scorpion82I personally stick with the data from PW which are:
128.1 kN (28000 lb) dry
191.3 kN (43000 lb) reheat
Just because there is a single source which states 48k lb doesn’t mean it’s true. By that measure we have heared a lot of claims in the past which were simply nonsense with an unknown origin.
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