Scorpion82It’s M25, not M23.
Then the info posted elsewhere was wrong. Thanks.
Scorpion82So far just 120 aircraft were ordered as part of 3 batches:
Lot: Ordered: Delivered: Standard Numbers
1 May 1997 2000-2003 F1 13 (10xM, 2xB, 1xC)
2 09.06.1999 (28)
21.12.2001 (20) 2004-2007 F2 48 (15xM, 21xB, 12xC)
3 06.12.2004 2009-2012 F3 59 (11xB, 36xC, 12xM)
8 aircraft had been canceled, but it is said that they will be reordered.
The split between B & C was originally 139 B & 95 C at the time the AdA reduced its number from 250 to 234 in 1991.
BTW the exact split is still not definitive now and the numbers you provided are just one suggestion.
Aircraft lost during the collision were the M22 and M25.
M2-M10 are still stored.
That’s the most current list from the Rafale forum, posted by TMor:
Ordered as Rafale F1 :
Order date : 3/26/1993 :
B301 : Dassault Aviation Istres CEV (development of standard F3)
M1 : Dassault Aviation Istres CEV (development of standard F1) (first flight on July the 7th of 1999)Order date : 02/17/1994 :
B302 : Dassault Aviation Istres CEV (développement standard F3)
M2 : Flottille 12F Landivisiau (waiting)
M3 : Flottille 12F Landivisiau (waiting)Order date : 09/13/1995 :
C101 : Dassault Aviation CEV Istres (development of standard F3)
M4 : Flottille 12F Landivisiau (waiting)
M5 : Flottille 12F Landivisiau (waiting)
M6 : Flottille 12F Landivisiau (waiting)
M7 : Flottille 12F Landivisiau (waiting)
M8 : Flottille 12F Landivisiau (waiting)
M9 : Flottille 12F Landivisiau (waiting)
M10 : Flottille 12F Landivisiau (waiting)Ordered in 1999, 48 Rafale F2 :
Initially, 28 aircraft (7 Rafale M), with an option of 20 (8 Rafale M), total of 33 Rafale Air and 15 Marine.
Later changed to 32 Air and 16 Marine : 25 Rafale B, 7 Rafale C, and 16 M. Here they are :7 Rafale C
C102 : CEAM Mont-de-Marsan (330-EF)
C103 : EC 01.007 “Provence” Saint-Dizier (113-HR)
C104 : EC 01.007 “Provence” Saint-Dizier (113-HH)
C105 : EC 01.007 “Provence” Saint-Dizier (113-HE)
C106 : EC 01.007 “Provence” Saint-Dizier (113-HG)
C107 : EC 01.007 “Provence” Saint-Dizier (113-HJ)
C108 : EC 01.007 “Provence” Saint-Dizier (113-HS)25 Rafale B
B303 : ECE 05.300 “Côte d’Argent” CEAM Mont-de-Marsan (330-EA)
B304 : ECE 05.300 “Côte d’Argent” CEAM Mont-de-Marsan (330-EB)
B305 : ECE 05.300 “Côte d’Argent” CEAM Mont-de-Marsan (330-EC)
B306 : EC 01.007 “Provence” Saint-Dizier (113-IB)B307 : EC 01.007 “Provence” Saint-Dizier (113-IA)
B308 : EC 01.007 “Provence” Saint-Dizier (113-HA)
B309 : EC 01.007 “Provence” Saint-Dizier (113-HB)
B310 : EC 01.007 “Provence” Saint-Dizier (113-HC)
B311 : EC 01.007 “Provence” Saint-Dizier (113-HD)
B312 : EC 01.007 “Provence” Saint-Dizier (113-HF)
B313 : EC 01.007 “Provence” Saint-Dizier (113-HI)
B314 : EC 01.007 “Provence” Saint-Dizier (113-HP)
B315 : EC 01.007 “Provence” Saint-Dizier (113-HK)
😥 B316 : EC 01.007 “Provence” Saint-Dizier (113-HL) lost on 12/6/2007 (pilot killed)
B317 : EC 01.007 “Provence” Saint-Dizier (113-HO)
B318 : EC 01.007 “Provence” Saint-Dizier (113-HM)
B319 : EC 01.007 “Provence” Saint-Dizier (113-HN)
B320 : EC 01.007 “Provence” Saint-Dizier (113-HV)
B321 : EC 01.007 “Provence” Saint-Dizier (113-HQ)
B322 : EC 01.007 “Provence” Saint-Dizier (113-HU)
B323 : EC 01.007 “Provence” Saint-Dizier (113-HT)
B324 : EC 01.007 “Provence” Saint-Dizier (113-HW)
B325 : EC 01.007 “Provence” Saint-Dizier (113-HX)
B326 : EC 01.007 “Provence” Saint-Dizier (113-HY)
B327 : EC 01.007 “Provence” Saint-Dizier (113-HZ)16 Rafale M
M11 : Flottille 12F Landivisiau
M12 : Flottille 12F Landivisiau
M13 : Flottille 12F Landivisiau
M14 : Flottille 12F Landivisiau
M15 : Flottille 12F Landivisiau
M16 : Flottille 12F Landivisiau
M17 : Flottille 12F Landivisiau
M18 : Flottille 12F Landivisiau
M19 : Flottille 12F Landivisiau
M20 : Flottille 12F Landivisiau
M21 : Flottille 12F Landivisiau
M22 : Flottille 12F Landivisiau lost on 9/24/2009 (air collision, with loss of one of the pilots)
M23 : Flottille 12F Landivisiau
M24 : Flottille 12F Landivisiau
M25 : Flottille 12F Landivisiau lost on 9/24/2009 (air collision, with loss of one of the pilots)
M26 : Flottille 12F LandivisiauNearly all those Rafale F2 are now retrofitted to F3 standard.
===================
Ordered in 2004, 59 Rafale F3 (36 C, 11 B, 12 M) + 2 Rafale for the relaunch plan (2009) :
Rafale C :
C109 : EC 01.007 “Provence” Saint-Dizier (113-IM)
C110 : EC 01.007 “Provence” Saint-Dizier (113-IN)
C111 : EC 01.007 “Provence” Saint-Dizier (113-IP)
C112 : EC 01.007 “Provence” Saint-Dizier (113-IQ)
C113 : Dassault Aviation Mérignac
C114 : Dassault Aviation Mérignac
C116 : Dassault Aviation MérignacRafale B :
B328 : EC 01.007 “Provence” Saint-Dizier (113-IC)
B329 : EC 01.007 “Provence” Saint-Dizier (113-ID)
B330 : EC 01.007 “Provence” Saint-Dizier (113-IE)
B331 : CEAM Mont-de-Marsan (?-IF)
B332 : CEAM Mont-de-Marsan (?-IG)
B333 : EC 01.007 “Provence” Saint-Dizier (113-IH)
B334 : EC 01.007 “Provence” Saint-Dizier (113-II)
B335 : EC 01.007 “Provence” Saint-Dizier (113-IJ)
B336 : EC 01.007 “Provence” Saint-Dizier (113-IK)
B337 : EC 01.007 “Provence” Saint-Dizier (113-IL)Rafale M :
M27 : CEAM Mont-de-Marsan (CEPA)
M28 : Dassault Aviation Mérignac
Hope that helps
cheers
Scorpion82It is VERY unlikely to be JP-5. Pretty much only the USN uses JP-5 due to its expense. Difference between JP-5 & JP-8 considered worth the cost for the additional safety on a carrier.
I may have been confused here and will ask what kind of fuel is used. Anyway JP-5 has a different density and the max figures for the F/A-18 are all with JP-5. So if it is actually JP-4 or 8 it could be even better for the Typhoon.
No, the fuel capacity of the F/A-18C is 1700 gal. Like I said, the numbers you provided are close enough given slight variations in conversion factors between volume (gals) & weight (lbs &/or kg) to be correct for the slighty less capacity of the F-18D of 1620-1621 gal.
Would you care to provide a source? As stated the data which are provided are from the NATOPS flight manual, hence an official document. The gallons stated there for the single-seat model is 1589.
Furthermore the manual states that the lb figures are rounded to the closest 10th and that the gallon times will not necessarily agree with the pounds column.
Scorpion82Perhaps the discrepancy between the figures is just down to the different fuel types in use then ?
That’s what I meant by that. Who knows, as long as the type of fuel isn’t specified in those data, it is all about speculation. Though I expect that there should be some kind of standard fuel.
Scorpion82There’s an EADS presentation that puts the Typhoon’s fuel fraction at 0.31, which for an empty weight of 11,000 kg gives a range of between 4944-5170 kg internal fuel, and then we have it right from the a pilot’s mouth that the Typhoon carries 5.5 short tons or 4989kg of internal fuel, assuming of course that the plane was fully fuelled at the start of that display. 😉
It certainly depends on the fuel itself as well. As the density is different, it might well be in a given range. A RAF guy said 5200 kg to me, albeit a Luftwaffe tanker driver said 7000 l+ (forgot the exact number) albeit I believe that this includes the centre line drop tank as well.
Scorpion82Read what I was responding to.
You yourself have posted “over 4900 kg”. Why, if Abhimanyu is correct, did you not post categorically “just over 5,000 kg”? And why link to a source which credits <4,900 kg?
My reply was more aimed at your “I haven’t seen it” statement, rather than the exact number. You certainly haven’t seen a lot of things, that doesn’t mean they don’t exist, albeit I agree with you here that >5000 kg is not a “most accepted figure”. Basically a moot point, and I stay at the conclusion that the fuel load is somewhere in between 4900 kg and 5000 kg, with the photograph evidence of 4940 kg. I assume that to be JP-5.
F/A-18D. 🙂
F/A-18C is 1700 gal = 11,390 lbs (@ 6.7 lbs/gal).
Sorry, 14,480 lbs rather then the generally rounded figure of 14,400 lbs.
14,480 lbs – 11,390 lbs (F/A-18C) = 3090 lbs [JP-8].
14,480 lbs – 10,860 lbs (F/A-18D) = 3620 lbs [JP-8].Most sources which even bother to do so credit the F/A-18F with 13,350 lbs (presumably JP-8 as the ‘14,400’ most commonly credited to the F/A-18E is).
And just so everyone knows, the USAF uses JP-8 while the USN uses JP-5 on its carriers.
Look the figures I provided are for the F/A-18C and F/A-18E both directly taken form their related NATOOPS flight manuals. Unless you want to challange the accuracy of these documents and come up with a more accurate/reliable source I don’t see your point. Fact is for someone who is nitpicking on a minor calculation difference of 1.6 kg, you are awefully off with your numbers in comparison!
Scorpion82BS. I have not seen nor has ANYONE here referenced to ANY reliable source (APA is NOT a reliable source) which credits >5,000 kg.
Because you haven’t seen it, it must be wrong eh?
4,926 kg is the F/A-18D, which has a slightly reduced fuel capacity compared to the F/A-18C.
See my figures above directly taken from the NATOOPS manual for the type and the figures are for the F/A-18C.
The F/A-18C/D is not a comtender for MMRCA, the F/A-18E/F is. The F/A-18E has a 14,400 lbs fuel capcity (‘3,000 lbs’ greater than the F/A-18C & ‘3600 lbs’ greater than the F/A-18D).
The F/A-18E actually has 14700 lb of JP-5, 14480 lb of JP-8 or 14050 lb of JP-4. So we speak about a difference of 3890 lb (JP-5) to be correct. :p
Scorpion82A few will be used by QinetiQ; http://www.qinetiq.com/home/newsroom/news_releases_homepage/2007/2nd_quarter/bvraam.html
Not sure its been posted before :p
Dunno if that was that link, but the fact itself is well known;)
Scorpion82Well if you are going to claim at least 4900 kg & then link to a source which gives less than 4900 kg, I deserve to split hairs. 🙂
I say at least because photographs say more than 1000 words.;)
I have not seen this cockpit image or ANY source which confirms >4900 kg (even the one you gave indicates <4900 kg). Not that I don’t believe 4900-5000 kg is not possible but 5800 kg is well above any reliable source.
That cockpit image was up at eurofighter.com. in the image section, but after they have reworked that section I haven’t found it again as a lot of old images of the prototypes have gone. But I still have that image on HD anyway and it states 4940 kg (yes it says kg not l not lb).
If it makes you all feel better I can revise my statement to from what I have seen it is in the ~4536-4990 kg (~10,500 +/- 500 lbs) range. I was still a bit hung up on so many sources still crediting only 4000-4500 kg even though I personally believe it to be >10,000 lbs (but still <11,000 lbs).
Sure as there are many sources still stating the F-22s supercruise speed with Mach 1.5, or its emptyweight with ~14.5t. I have seen/heard a couple of references from pilots, tanker driver guys, the operator and the pictural evidences as well.
At any rate my statement still stands (but I will revise it as well). The Eurofighter Typhoon’s internal fuel capacity is less than than of the F-18C. POSSIBLY (but I am not yet conviced) more than that of the two-seat F-18D. Of course now I am REALLY splitting hairs aren’t I. 🙂
F-18C internal fuel capacity
1,700 gal ~ 6,460 L
11,390 lbs ~ 5,166.5 kgF-18D internal fuel capacity
1,621 gal ~ 6,159.4 L
10,860 lbs ~ 4,926.1 kg
For the F/A-18C it’s actually 10810 lb (4913 kg) of JP-5 and 10330 lb (4695 kg) of JP-4 according the NATPOS flight manual of the F/A-18A-D;)
Oh it’s me who going to split hairs now:diablo:
Let’s simply agree that both aircraft carry about the same amount of fuel internal.
Scorpion82Err…
6125 L ~10,799 lbs (4898.4 kg)
But again, there is no consenses among sources. Believe the one you wish.
Hairsplitter:D
Anyway I believe the most reliable source and that one is a cockpit image of DA7 showing the fuel load with more than 4900 kg on HUP and MHDD. Other sources are just confirming that.
Scorpion82http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUw-oDcPqfU
The pilot mentions at around 15 seconds into the clip –
The empty weight of the production single seat Typhoon is 24,239-24,250 lbs which is approx 12 short tons, and 5.5 short tons = 11,000 lbs of internal fuel. This gives the Typhoon a fuel fraction of just over 31%.
Empty weight –
http://www.eurofighter.com/news/article129.asp?srcx=dev1
http://www.eurofighter.com/et_ap_pd_ma.asp?srcx=dev1
http://www.eurofighter.com/news/article160.asp?srcx=dev1
That’s 11t not 12t. And 11000 lb of fuel is 5t not 5.5t.
Scorpion82If i am not mistaken there´s also a video on youtube (somewhere) in wich a RAF pilot mentions an internal fuel of five tons.
Cheers
True, in addition to a cockpit image from DA7 were 4934 kg is shown on the fuel display ;). There are plenty of sources (quite reliable ones) which given internal fuel load with 4900+ kg.
Scorpion82The internal fuel capacity of the Eurofighter Typhoon is LESS than that of the F/A-18A-D. Actual capacity is still classified but from what I have seen it is in the 4300-4750 kg (~10,000 +/- 500 lbs) range.
That’s wrong the internal fuel load is at least 4900 kg.
Scorpion82Just to shed some light. AMSAR and CECAR were government funded programms aimed at risk reduction and R&D for an AESA fighter radar. AMSAR was a general programme by Germany, France and the UK. CECAR was a German-British programmed aimed at risk reduction for an E-Scan solution for the Typhoon. Both programmes were concluded in late 2008.
CAESAR was funded by the Euroradar consortium which invested some 8 mln € between the program start in april 2002 and the first flight onboard the BAC 1-11 trials aircraft on 24 february 2006. The demonstrator was initially nothing else than a Captor-E with the AESA front end, ACU and new power supply. The receiver and processor (from Captor-D) were retained, albeit it has been said that the processor for the Captor-D has been selected with an AESA upgrade in mind. The aim of CAESAR was to accelerate the development of an AESA solution for the Typhoon, while keeping costs low and it benefited from the experience gained with other programmes and used the european GAA TRMs which will also be used by the MEADS and Rafale’s RBE 2AA.
The initial CAESAR trials campaign lasted 5 weeks and included 7 test flights were the demonstrator was operated for ~21 hours.
In summer 2006 first fitting trials in a Typhoon airframe were conducted and CAESAR was further developed afterwards. The BWB (German Defence Procurment Agency) funded the trials throughout 2007 were CAESAR was fitted to DA5 which conducted its first flight on 8 may 2007 and flew 4 sorties. CAESAR has been further developed since and additional trials campaigns were flown onboard the BAC 1-11. The aircraft has been seen at Manching in late 2008 and it’s probably back in the UK now.
What has been done/achieved in the meantime is unknown, but it would be dumb to assume nothing has happened since.
As Swerve pointed out Euroradar partners have worked on other AESA projects as well. Selex’s Vixen series is a good example for that and guess who was selected by Saab for help with the ES-05/A Raven? Right it is Selex. Claiming that radar which has yet to be flown onboard the Gripen Demo would be further developed or more mature than any AESA solution for the Typhoon is somewhat odd, if you ask me.
BTW additional funds for an AESA solution for the Typhoon were included in the germans defence budget plan for 2009. So there is something happening, albeit not everything is covered in the public and a final decision for the T3A configuration has yet to be made (planned for year end).
Scorpion82I could be wrong, but this was confirmed when Gerhart was in New Delhi a month or so ago. The EF that flies for field evals in the MRCA race will carry the Captor M. Things could change of course. Any way, tiffy folks have always said it is equal to most AESAs out there.
USS.
Sensor and weapon tests will be carried out seperately at a later date in the manufacturers country. Thereby it might be true that the aircraft in the field trials in India use the Captor-M. So it’s not necessarily contradictional.
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