Finally found some info on the 2008 encounters between Luftwaffe Eurofighters and AdA Rafales.
Besting the Rafale
Speaking of the Eurofighters close-in combat prowess, Major Marc Grüne, CO of 742 (Zapata), the second squadron of the wing, described to assembled aviation journalists how, on a recent visit to France to demo the aircraft, he had won ‘two out of two’ battles against the Dassault Rafale in mock withinvisual range dogfights. Both fights were a ‘standard set-up’ and merge at 21,000ft and 30,000ft he recounted, adding that the “higher the fight the better the Eurofighter liked it”. He singled out the Eurofighter’s excess power as its trump card over the Rafale in this admittedly ‘controlled’ test but did concede that the Rafale’s EW systems would be highly effective in a real conflict situation. He also noted that the Rafale was able to keep control at lower speeds — due to the ‘automatic’ pull-out and recovery system that the Eurofighter is equipped with and which takes control away from the pilot if it thinks a departure or stall is imminent.
http://www.raes.org.uk/pdfs/AI_0811.pdf
I might add that the pilot still admires the Rafale’s low speed handling qualities and its EW systems. That’s what I call honest and balanced.
The article itself appears to be inconsistent and contradictory and is full of factual inaccuracies as well. But as this is just the authors opinion, it should be taken lightly.
What amazes me is the sheer amount of articles dedicated to the loose of the Americans. It seems that their pride is seriously hurt.
Is there something new about the DA5’s LERX ?
I found this on a blog :
http://ukarmedforcescommentary.blogspot.com/p/eurofighter-typhoon.htmlThis story is still very mysterious to me… How did it start ? Why ? What was discovered ? Will the fleet benefit from it ?
:confused:
Eurofighter actually called these apex strakes. They were tested in September 2007 in DA5’s last trials campaign prior retirement. They were largely similar to the LEX of the Rafale and it was found that they would improve low speed manoeuvrability, without great effort. Up to date there are no known news suggesting that they will be implemented however.
We have been talking about how SPECTRA was quite special and unique and some people came and said that there is no reason to beleive there is anything SPECTRA does that PRAETORIAN doesn’t which they have so far showed no evidence for such a statement.
The other way round there isn’t much of an evidence which proves the opposite. Most of the claims are based on conjecture, there are some capabilities reported for the Spectra which are unheard of from other systems, so they might be unique. Most of the “superior performance” claims put forward are mere speculation, but some people present them as facts and that’s why people pop up and ask what’s the base for such claims. Thus far the answers weren’t answering anything at all, they were just a repetition of what was being claimed before. Thus far we have confirmed target coordination and ELINT capabilities, we know about AESA jamming antennas and that’s it basically. Maybe adding the “3-D signature map”. As said there might be unique capabilities and Spectra might be able to do things a DASS can’t, but that doesn’t automatically mean that the entire system is vastly superior in every single area and that the DASS is hopefully outmatched on all fronts.
And to say that the Rafale is also used in a strategic environment as part of the aerial nuclear deterrence for the french forces is relevant weither you like it or not. No country spend million building a new missile (ASMPA) without a credible plane to use it, period.
This has nothing to do with like it or not. No one of us has the requirements for each system and know one of us has all necessarily specifications at hand for both systems to make a definitive judgement. Speculation and opinions are fine, but they’re no proofs. People are free to believe what they want, but they should be honest enough to admit their own limitations instead of playing the smart **** they aren’t.
The M2000 is also capable of swing role, but you simply don’t use a M2000D for air interdiction because their pilots are not trained for it and their systems are not optimize for that role. The other european did the same with their variant of tornadoes, the US doesn’t use F15E for air defense etc.
F-16 and F/A-18 squadrons perform all kind of missions since a long time! Selective nitpicking of opposite examples doesn’t prove this wrong and that’s another point. Some are so obsessed that they lose any sense for reality and live in their self created fantasy world.
The RAF has gone from ~270+ to ~150 and is still unable to afford the jet.
AdlA has gone from ~280+ to ~200+ just to fund early AESA etc. Yet the Typhoon is costing the RAF far more, but does so far less than the Rafale.
RAF 250 =>232 =>160 (contracted)
AdA 250 => 234 => 228 => 133 (contracted/-6 cutted from the 3rd batch)
By the time the Typhoon is fully operational in AtG the Rafale will be lauching satellites…
So clearly just doing the math here, the Typhoon might be developed (specially if the F35 doesnt deliver) to perform more complexe AtG missions, but it seems to me like it’s going to be costly.
Fine and what? Btw the Rafale isn’t exactly cheap either, albeit it offers a better bang for the buck right now.
Since 2002 British PM are saying the Typhoon programme has been badly handled and that reforms are needed. Obviously these reforms take longer than expected and unfortunatly the aircraft is suffering, and now it’s to late to make it economical. It might end up been a acceptable swing role aircraft, but not a cheap one. And unless the F35 is cancelled and UK, Italy and Spain decide to make it their sole aircraft there will never be the same will behing the Typhoon has there is behing the Rafale to keep it relevant for swing role mission that are very complicated.
It’s no news that the Eurofighter programme was badly managed and that the aircraft suffered from this… In the end it is a moot point to discuss the availability of this or that capability if people don’t put things in the right context. There was never ever an requirement for the Typhoon performing naval strike and nuclear strike for example and AG was rather low on the agenda anyway. If both the Rafale and the Typhoon had been designed to perform the very same missions than such comparisons would be valid, but as they aren’t they are largely irrelevant! But that’s something the narrow minded die hards won’t get anyway. So keep bragging about your great nuke missile thrower if it makes you happy. 😉
@Nicolas,
fully agree with that. In the end it’s ever the total package. Individual elements in sum shape the weapon system. Wrt the Spectra being designed in etc. that’s all fine and true, but that doesn’t mean it’s less true for others. BW repeatedly talks about “generic ECM” on the Typhoon which is crap to stay polite and that’s exactly what I meant when I said “the Rafale is living from myths”. The lack of interest in anything beyond one mans/boys favourite fighter translates into a lack of proper information about the opposition and the fact that many people prefer to base their judgement on prejudices and wishful thinking and often enough even made up stuff is sad if you ask me and certainly not going to contribute to a civilised, balanced discussion and that’s what’s particularly frustrating me these days.
@Nicolas,
the point here is that aircraft were multirole capable and able to switch roles in flight back then. That they weren’t as versatile as they are today is not that important at all, as it doesn’t change the fact that multirole/swingrole capability was already a given and Rafale LF1’s delivered from December 2000 weren’t even as flexible as those early F-16s, not to say they lacked any multirole capabilities and weren’t BVR capable either!;)
As aforementioned the Rafale can do some things others can’t, but once again it doesn’t change the very facts and I have no doubt that a dynamic re-targeting is possible for any halfway advanced F-16 derivative and other fighters for that matter. All the latest fighters are equipped with a MIDS, so the Rafale doesn’t have an advantage here, others just don’t brag THAT much about that capability albeit its very much present. Take into account that dual-mode bombs a la EPW or LJDAM will allow flexible re-targeting and allow for he delivery of multiple weapons in a single pass against multiple targets as well.;) These unpowered weapons don’t offer the HOBS and stand-off capabilities of an AASM, but they are still useful and can do a lot of things as well. In my opinion the Rafale is more than ever living from myths today and its not about being capable of this or that, but about other aircraft being capable to do this or that. Much what the French claim to be “unique” and “revolutionary” about the Rafale is true for the French armed forces, but not so much for everyone else!
The HMSS is still not used by any frontline unit as far as I can judge. Haven’t seen any Typhoon jock equipped with it in a Typhoon with frontline sqn markings. Thus far the helmet has been worn by OEU pilots only.
And even if the helmet is available, if the exercise was just a guns only fighter, the availability of the HMSS won’t change to much, albeit it aids wrt situational awareness.
Idle thrust is usually in the range between 60-65%, in some cases (such as for the F100 for example even 70%).
I just want to throw some more cents of mine into the discussion.
The Rafale is an excellent airplane and without doubt one of the most advanced and capable combat aircraft in service today. It’s a very versatile platform and quite good at all it does. Th Rafale certainly features some nice and possibly even unique capabilities, has its strengths and enjoys its advantages over other types. But it would be naive to believe that the aircraft is an uncompromised, perfect super fighter, which is superior to everything else in every single area. Every design reflects a choice of compromise and trade-offs have to be accepted, the Rafale is no exception here.
The aircraft appears to be a very balanced design and in my humble opinion it’s probably the best balanced multirole fighter in service today. This is owed to the requirements which called for an aircraft capable of performing all missions the French armed forces require from its fast jet types. The aircraft is intended to replace all fast jets in the AdA and MN and the Rafale must be subsequently capable of performing all mission reasonably well. Other aircraft are less well balanced as either AA or AG was the principle design driver and the other requirements are subordinated for that reason. The French treated AA and AG requirements with equal priority translating into a well balanced combat aircraft.
The term omnirole fighter suites the Rafale and perfectly describes its nature as an inherently flexible operational asset. Dassault and the AdA/MN refer to omni-role as the Rafale performs all the missions previously performed by all the fast jets operated by the two services. Anything beyond that is exaggerate fanboy hype, however. The Rafale is revolutionary and unique for the French armed forces as it is the first type to perform all the missions in a single variant. All previous generations of French combat aircraft were built in different variants to fullfil the various roles, i.e. the Mirage F1 which was built in the C, CT and CR versions dedicated to AA, AG and recce respectively or the Mirage 2000 which was built in the C, RDI, 5F versions covering AA, whereas the D & N covered the AG roles. For the French the Rafale is subsequently a real quantum leap wrt operational flexibility. Looking at the big, not French centric, picture unveils, however, that such an versatility is neither revolutionary nor new at all. The introduction of digital, software driven avionics enabled the F-16 and F/A-18 to do so since ~30 years! They may not perform every mission the Rafale performs and they may not perform equally well in every mission, but switching between roles in flight is a real possibility for virtually all moder multirole fighters, EVEN the Typhoon. Being capable to perform SEAD/DEAD missions without any “special equipment” or dedicated ARMs doesn’t change that very fact!
Rafales reduced signatures are all fine and well and might be lower than that of any other modern fighters, spare real VLO designs like the F-22 or F-35, but it’s nothing but ridiculous to claim that this aircraft is so stealthy that it will never be detected early enough or will ever have the first look advantage over every opponent!
Wrt the Spectra magic pixie dust, super stealth cloaking device, well it’s without doubt a very fine system and one of the best of its kind. Whether it’s the best or not is nothing one can readily say without all the necessary details at hand, one might guess, but that’s still just speculation and no proof at all. The French being confident and happy with the system doesn’t prove anything either wrt its respective performance in comparison to other defensive aids suites. If Americans choose to go the safe root because they actually CAN afford to volley waves of cruise missiles against C2 nodes and IADS elements prior sent in their own fighters, why not!? That doesn’t mean a Growler couldn’t have dealt with the threats, but the Americans simply chose the safe way. The French can’t afford this and thus opted for the riskier way, confident that they will survive. In the end the Libyan ADS is no unknown one, western forces encountered all the different air defence systems multiple times in a number of campaigns and their capabilities are subsequently known and ECM, tactics etc. can be adjusted accordingly. To cut it short Spectra performing well in the environment doesn’t prove its superiority over anything, it just proves that it is capable to deal with the threats in the given theatre.
What’s particularly annoying however are these countless unqualified claims and exaggerations about the Spectra’s performance in comparison to the DASS. This brabbling about the French poured oh so much money into Spectra and the mission requirements, without any detail knowledge about the specifications of each respective system is tiring at best! So how much money has been spent on each system and what where the true requirements (not my aircraft has to perform nuclear strike bla bla)!? Facts matter, not conjecture!
I already asked such questions before, but the answers were fishy and not really telling at all, as was to be expected!
As I said before, some people should really start to take a look at the broader picture instead of focussing on “their toy” only and derive exaggerated claims from their lack of knowledge about other systems!
Stop whining guys n galls. Things like these happen and it’s ignorant to believe that the F-16 is a slouch in knife fights, especially the older A-Vipers which are much lighter than the newer Cs. Errors are made and exercises are there to learn your lessons and improve your skills!
And isn’t it a testimony that everyone and his mother is eager to present victories against the Typhoon? 😉
Better don’t ask for the real exchange rates not those from a snapshot.:diablo:
@TooCool12F,
but those articles recently talking about bribery from the French were directly related to the MMRCA tender. Mildave posts about the Al Yamamah deal from the 1980s about the Tornado sale in Saudiarabia, which has nothing to do with the current MMRCA tender in India. Sorry to say so but that’s obviously just another cheap shot which bears a strong trollish attitude and nothing else.
@Mildave,
and what has this to do with the MMRCA? :rolleyes:
Hmmm… Could you elaborate ?
The outboard centre stations have a lower load limit. Only the inner centre (wet) stations are cleared for large and heavy stores (2000+ lb). Don’t know about the inner stations they might be strong enough to hold heavier stores, but large stores would interfer with the MLG. The centre line has tight limits as well, anything thicker than the current 1000 l tanks wouldn’t fit there, once again due the MLG (doors in this case).
Are there any details about the crash itself?
Was X31 designed fly before EAP? It flew about 5 years after I think. If not both EF and X31 are the b@stard offspring of Warton.
Concor(e) with X-31 style thrust vectoring and semi-conformal weapons for JCA?
Whether the British like it or not, but the Typhoon configuration was merely invented by the Germans, MBB to be exactly. MBB’s TKF 90 proposal from 1977/78 featured most of the details of the definitive Typhoon such as low mounted deltas, longer coupled canards, belly mounted intakes and similar fuselage shaping. All subsequent designs with such arrangement were in fact based on MBB’s TKF90 but details were changed to a certain extend with British requirements/input playing a role. The ECF joint proposal from MBB/BAe in 1979 was the first off-spring. BAe’s P.110 just came up in 1981 and was in fact more similar to the Gripen than the Typhoon. P.110 was abandoned in 1982 in favour of the ACA a joint proposal from the Panavia GmbH. ACA didn’t materialise as planned and BAe was contracted to built the EAP which was in fact the ACA, but with some detail changes enforced on cost grounds when the Germans and Italians pulled out to a certain extend.
Th X-31 was an MBB/Rockwell joint development it came after the EAP and that it is shaped the way it is is no coincidence thanks to MBB.;)
Just a small history in pictures:
MBB TKF90 (~1978)
MBB/BAe ECF (1979)
BAe P.110 (1981)
Panavia ACA (1982)
I think that the remaining EAP, F/EFA and EFA concepts are more or less known.