Glad you are ok Moggy !
+8 Gs…what G loads is the plane designed for ?
Speedy recovery Moggy C !
Small mods in the elevator….err ruddervator.
Well propulsion and speed being equal, a lower wing load will improve ceiling, speed improve lift,
and higher exhaust speed is needed to improve speed.
I’m assuming inlet and bypass will largely determine top speed
LIFT = ½xpxV^2xAxCl
Obligatory has it right !
Power to weight ratio is a key issue here too.
G1 is able fly at 1.35 power to weight ratio ( N/kg ).
You are missing the point. Design, be it small/medium/big, heavy/light, long ranged/short ranged, HAS to have design GOALs.
Pratically I don’t comment on the idea of designing a small aircraft. I disagree about the method of doing so, and without specific purpose, a design cannot be said to work or not.
For example you state, 3000 km ferry range is enough for your design aircraft. That is something, a numerical goal, but you fail to specifiy how much space for fuel your design has (in litres or m3) or how draggy it will be (Cd0, Cdx, wing Cd, inlet area). Those are part of preliminary design, a crude calculation made on excel before going further into design. Otherwise, your design would be unrealistic more like a concept design for sci-fi film or cartoon, or a child’s dream fighter.
For example, you say combat range is 1000 km. An F-16 has 1288 km hi-lo-lo-hi combat range on bombing run when using 370 gals (when using 88nm combat zone radius), flying 892 km on externals, before dropping them. So without EFTs, an F-16 will have around 850-900 km combat range on internal fuel alone, depending on different CZR entry points. Your design apperantly has less than 2/3 fuel of F-16, and has less efficient engines. Will it achieve even 500 km combat radius?
You say M3.0 capability. Top speed is the point where drag equals your thrust. 33% less thrust than F-16, same drag, same fixed inlet configuration. F-16 goes M2.05, how will your design go any faster than that?
You say 30300 ceiling. F-16 has 18000 meter ceiling. With same wing area and less thrust, how are you hoping to make such improvement?
9.5Gs at 9500 kg means 886110 Newtons. As lift will be generated by wings, there will be a maximal bending stress at the main wing spars. In roughest form, its a simple 3 point bending; each wing providing 443 kN lift at their lift centers, and aircraft weight at 9.5Gs = 886 kN providing equal force in opposide direction.
b will be total sum of thickness of your wing spars, h will be height of your wing spars. L will be the distance between lift centers, F will be your 886110 newtons. Instead of MOR, you will use 74 MPa which is the modulus of rupture of strongest wood, Cherrybark red Oak.
Also at the wing roots, there will be shear stress where your wings will try to “cut” themselves off from the body, which is far more problematic for wood but I wont go into that. Simply make the calculation above and see how laughable your assumption about 9.5G is. You will possibly need far more wooden area than the entire wing airfoil.
I don’t think the G forces for the wing root spar is counted like this in the first place.
The wing itself with fuel load is loaded along the wing.
If the wing is stressed skin it has less stress on the spar area also.
I also figure the weight ( empty ) can be reduced to 5000 kg..and some 8500 kg Mtow.
Since the fuselage is kinda like lifting body it also lifts making the wing root stress lesser in positive G case.
So if the wing with fuel is 950 kg each you have for 6500 kg loaded weight 4600 kg weight for the wing root divided by 2..but since the fuselage lift 1/4 of the total you have 3450/2 ie 1720 kg load for the each wing root ( about 17 000 N ) for 1 G…ie 9.5 x 17 000 N = 161 500 N.
So if the wing has 6 attachment points along the fuselage…each attachment gets 161 500 N / 6 = 27000 N ( ie 2700 kg/attachment point ). If you have 8 attachment locations you get 2000 kg per point …this force then points directly up from the attachmet point….sorta like Mercedes sedan car weight in each point…but in two joints..one is being pulled and the other pushed..just like the spar caps…you may figure how that eases the task !
Modern compostite spar cap here; http://www.pddnet.com/articles/2013/04/there%E2%80%99s-new-twist-wind-blades
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Lower wing loading and higher speed result higher ceiling. F-16 also has no fuse lift.
LA-15 was lite 2575 kg empty; http://www.oocities.org/lastdingo/aviation/la-15.htm
These are from nurflygel sights…seen these before.
You are missing the point. Design, be it small/medium/big, heavy/light, long ranged/short ranged, HAS to have design GOALs.
Pratically I don’t comment on the idea of designing a small aircraft. I disagree about the method of doing so, and without specific purpose, a design cannot be said to work or not.
For example you state, 3000 km ferry range is enough for your design aircraft. That is something, a numerical goal, but you fail to specifiy how much space for fuel your design has (in litres or m3) or how draggy it will be (Cd0, Cdx, wing Cd, inlet area). Those are part of preliminary design, a crude calculation made on excel before going further into design. Otherwise, your design would be unrealistic more like a concept design for sci-fi film or cartoon, or a child’s dream fighter.
For example, you say combat range is 1000 km. An F-16 has 1288 km hi-lo-lo-hi combat range on bombing run when using 370 gals (when using 88nm combat zone radius), flying 892 km on externals, before dropping them. So without EFTs, an F-16 will have around 850-900 km combat range on internal fuel alone, depending on different CZR entry points. Your design apperantly has less than 2/3 fuel of F-16, and has less efficient engines. Will it achieve even 500 km combat radius?
You say M3.0 capability. Top speed is the point where drag equals your thrust. 33% less thrust than F-16, same drag, same fixed inlet configuration. F-16 goes M2.05, how will your design go any faster than that?
You say 30300 ceiling. F-16 has 18000 meter ceiling. With same wing area and less thrust, how are you hoping to make such improvement?
9.5Gs at 9500 kg means 886110 Newtons. As lift will be generated by wings, there will be a maximal bending stress at the main wing spars. In roughest form, its a simple 3 point bending; each wing providing 443 kN lift at their lift centers, and aircraft weight at 9.5Gs = 886 kN providing equal force in opposide direction.
b will be total sum of thickness of your wing spars, h will be height of your wing spars. L will be the distance between lift centers, F will be your 886110 newtons. Instead of MOR, you will use 74 MPa which is the modulus of rupture of strongest wood, Cherrybark red Oak.
Also at the wing roots, there will be shear stress where your wings will try to “cut” themselves off from the body, which is far more problematic for wood but I wont go into that. Simply make the calculation above and see how laughable your assumption about 9.5G is. You will possibly need far more wooden area than the entire wing airfoil.
Who said I am using ( would be using ) the wood also in spars etc ? I said the skin is wood based composite..strongest known to man….much tuffer than steel ( when thickness vs weight is corrected ). I said 15 Gs.
So…
1. 5x AAM (1 less than F-22 and 1 more than F-35)… which must be stored internally to control RCS.
2. Mach 3 capable (which means afterburning engine(s), structure capable of dealing with the heat soak and variable geometry air intakes).
3. Combat range of around 1000 km, for comparison, the combat range of the F-22 is about 800km, the F/A-18 E/F about 700 km, the F-16 about 600 km. Your gonna need a fuel fraction in around ~0.35 to achieve that.
4. Use of the radar guided AMRAAM means you need fire control radar.
5. To remain low observable means you need advanced RWR, FLIR, IRST and ECM.And you propose to do this for around 360/12.5 = $30 million per aircraft?
Might I respectfully suggest you don’t have a clue what you are talking about. You’d do well to pay heed to what your being told in the thread.
Maybe you should learn to count to 8 first ! http://www.f22fighter.com/weapons.htm
High super cruise ( like in F-CK-1 with similar engines ) is a must to get out standing combat range.
Some developement has to be done that is for sure. I say one word…tactics !
To verify that it presents an RCS too small to lock on, you have to test it first. I am sure you have access to no special software that allows you to design components and predict the impact they will have to RCS from the design stage. You have no specialized (it seems) knowledge on materials. A 9.5g structural limit is not something easily achieved. The very fast jets have special alloys that allow them to sustain the heat from the extreme speed.
Furthermore, your pilot has extremely limited rearward visibility which is essential in close aerial combat and a turning fight, the way he is seated he will not even be able to turn his head.
Cooling is a very important part of modern avionics. Redundancy is also.
Practically invisible radar means absolutely nothing to IRST and your older technology engines emit a pretty powerful IR signature. Due to the small airframe and lack of cooling the IR signature has a good chance of being visible from head on too.
I am convinced there are a tonne of other problems too as Andraxxus has mentioned.
I am sure there is tonne of problems to be solved when one wants to make stealth that is same time agile as a bat and invisible…like a “predator” !
First of all the engine exhausts are visible to underside only..belly is suntin you avoid to show adversary.
Wood is very redundant…and composite even more so. We have discussed IRST previously here…easy to out maneuvre.
The head turn part is partially true..but tactics can change that. I think I already have a cool rear view mirror in it.
9.5 G is not easily achived…I made a wooden racer R/C craft with 22 G limit. The fact is that if you make the plane lite it also endures easily more Gs.
The Willy Messerschmitt HA-300 was 3200 kg empty with 47 kN engine…the F-CK-1 is 6500 kg with 2 x 42 kN engines. If you use wood in a strongly “lifting body” layout I bet you get 5800 kg empty weight easily..and 9500 kg Mtow. I am convinced it can do 15 Gs.
How exactly will it kill enemies fast?
It just out turns anything hitherto..due to low wing loading and insane power to weight ratio..and gives no change of radar locking. Also is a small target…and practically invisible to any radar.
Of course a well trained pilot is needed to accomplish the mission successfully.
Pretty kewl or what ?
Oh you are wrong about this one; As a mechanical engineer, I am very well aware of design phases, and I am saying first phase of designing is laying out the technical specifications of your design. You can’t start designing a car, without defining if its a family sedan, sport sedan, grand tourer or executive class. Yet your first order of business is to put a twin-turbo V6 because it sounds good and modern. On simpler terms, you cant design a pump without specifying how much of what fluid its going to pump. For the aircraft its exactly the same. Before you even start drawing the first line; you have to decide on performance factors.
-what is the design combat radius with design payload.
-what is Maximum payload.
-Ferry range.
-G limit with design payload.
-Top speed.
-design acceleration at varying conditions; #1 = ? #2 = ? …..
-instantenious turn performance at varying conditions; SL, 30k, clean, specified AAM payload, specified A/G payload.
-sustained turn performance at varying conditions;
-RCS (if calculable) at varying angles.An ideal design should be smallest and cheapest one to match or exceed all those paramaters. You shouldn’t be drawing your first line without specifying those. Doubling your G limit will roughly double your empty weight, and so will your wing design engine choice will differ. To increase the ITR you have to increase wing area, and your range, acceleration, top speed and STR will suffer. If you want to have good ITR and STR at the same time you will need bigger engines. bigger engines will need more fuel so design enlargens; to match all the parameters on the table.
For example, I attempted to do preliminary design for a -rather ambitious- aircraft with following goals, merging a subsonic strategic bomber, supersonic tactical bomber, air-superiority fighter and an interceptor.
-36 Mk-82s internally to 1500 km combat radius.
-12 AIM-120s internally to 2000 km combat radius.
-3 Kh-55s internally to 3000 km combat radius.
-Ability to carry GBU-28, Kh-31, Kh-55 internally.
-4 internal BVR missile carriage outside main weapon bay.
-9G capability with 4 AAM missiles and 50% fuel.
-Mach 3.0 capability with internal payloads.
-15 minute Mach 2.5+ capability with 4 BVR missiles.
-25000 meter ceiling with 4 missiles and 50% fuel.
-32+ deg/s ITR and 23+ deg/s STR at S/L
-18+ deg/s ITR and 11+ deg/s STR at 30kI started with same specifications of F-15E, I ended up with two F-135s with variable ramps, 22,2 meter length, 109m2 wing area, 22000 ton empty weight (target), and 15560 kg fuel capacity, and still couldnt match all the parameters I’ve laid.
You ask WHY aircraft is so big, the answers are above. If you are going for “small” you can sit a pilot on an Teledyne J-69 add pair of glider wings and a fuel tank, it would fly too. What good it would do is another issue.
Yes if you design a plane to kill entire army at once you need to have a huge plane.
I have 6 gbu-39s or 3 AMRAAMs ( 1 amraam = 2 GBU-39s )…and 2 AIM9Xs and 2 x 27 mm cannons. Also one GBU 31 fits when all AMRAAM are away…or 2 x AMRAAM and 1 GBU 32.
Combat range about 1000 km.
Ceiling 30 300 meters and mach 3 there ( getaway car ). Maybe 600 kts at low. You have to reload quickly to get same effect as you kite does.
At the price of one F-22 you get 12.5 of these…so the team work could pay of if needed.
Interceptions work only to a point by Ground guidance. You need your own sensors to pinpoint the enemy fighters.
carrying missiles is only half the work, you have to be able to aim them at something. A small AESA will probably be good for medium distances with enough power, but there isn’t such a small airborne AESA as yet.
By the way, AESA’s don’t mean necessarily better performance than a traditional radar. It is just a different kind of radar, advantages in some areas, perhaps disadvantages in others.
the radar in the F-5 was small as you say, yet not very efficient, the F-20 was considered and rejected against the F-16/ F-18 generation. In all instances going up against an F-16 in an F-5 is considered highly a one way trip.
The F-5/ 20 may be agile enough to beat an F-16 in a gun battle, but how many times will that happen?in an operational environment, planning takes a lot of time to make sure you are sending in packets of airplanes in a way that minimizes chances for the enemy to respond.
NATO in serbia went out of its way to make sure there was no aerial threat even when everyone knew there wasn’t one to begin with.
In Iraq, the Iraqi airforce was put down with extreme prejudice even though it was weak and antiquated for the opposition.
If you don’t respect your enemy, they will kill you. That is why if F-16s were to go up against F-5’s the mission would still be optimized to bring the F-5’s in a situation where their strengths mean nothing and their weaknesses mean everything.
Never give your opponent a chance is the way.
In the hypothetical scenario that your plane existed, the attacking formations would be overlapping to make sure your numerous planes are chased back when the fuel is running low and followed to their bases by a very voluminous amount of ammunition that would effectively destroy their landing strips. Having little fuel would mean they would fall off the sky.
Similar approaches were considered against the MiG-29 and it’s small fuel load, and have actually been implemented by aircraft with higher fuel load against ones with smaller fuel load, effectively making them ditch to the sea.
A small fighter is a good idea, but still away from our current capabilities.
F-20 was a disaster…as RpR has indicated.
I am not trying to sell F-5 or F-20 but a new type of smallish stealth..yes. Some design work is left to do in avionics and radar etc but definitely it wont be a looser nor in fuel load in nor in ACM abilities/skills.
I figure this kills all enemies so fast that you never tought was possible….unless a design alike comes along.
Laminated wood/fibreglass surfaces are one new feature…strong and lite….and RAM sticks to it like charm.
You posted the cutout of an F-5. Although a very nimble fighter, the F-5 is a very very old design. The actual radar on the F-5 in all its versions was weak at best. For better or worst the F-16 is the norm when we are talking about modern fighters because it combines great performance in small package in relatively small price (used to anyway).
Look up a photo of the radar bay in the F-16 and see how big the equipment that goes in there is.I get the sense that what you are imagining is a jet era “spitfire” gloriously defending the motherland going up by the tens or even hundreds to shoot down invading aircraft. Nostalgic but this will never happen.
Everybody would wish to have a smaller faster plane. There is a reason they don’t have it. They can’t at this level of technology.
Well Falcon Dude..this is exactly the point I want to bring out..the RADAR may be small but it does not have to be inefficient…a small AESA is better than nothing..another stealth needs also passive ground radar network input to detect foe..it ( detection ) may happen with bare eye just before the gun burst !?
If you save yourself of being detected by having 1/4th frontal area and 1/3 general size ( when both are stealth )..you may have a upper hand…in certaing narrow area..defending a homeland..above it.
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/a/img651/4873/northropf20munger.jpg
Better small radar in F-20 below !
Going from F-16, you are trying to make a thinner version of F-16 by switching to two/four engines in ventral pod-like arrangements. If you do that, you have to relocate anything within lower equipment bay and the lower part of forward equipment bay to somewhere else. Also, with deletion on inlet, you have to relocate forward LG to somewhere else.
The problem is you are thinking aircraft = engines + pilot + gun + radar + missiles, and rest of the area goes to fuel.
Even within the definition of “fuelling system” alone you will need numerous transfer and pressurization pumps, valves cutoff/shutoff valves, ventilations for each reservoir, a halon reservoir for inerting presure, halon/air mixing valves, relief valves, electrical control equipment, wiring and sensors etc etc, then there will be fuel flow proportioners, only to provide a consistent fuel flow to the engine in all flight conditions.
Then there will be engine fuel boost pump, providing fuel to AB fuel pumps and main fuel pump. There will be a digital engine control system, directing two sub control systems main engine control system MEC and AB fuel control computer AFC. There will be dozen servos and valves, and some fuel/oil and fuel/hydrolic heat exchangers before fuel finally reaches the engine.
Even this is a VERY complex system and all these machinery electronics, 50++ meters of piping 100++ meters of wiring takes space within the aircraft.
I have mentioned this is small countrys ( not necessarily Finland ) defence weapon…it needs no aerial refuelling the 3000-3400 km ferryrange is quite enough. All super power related equipments that are needed to wage war tens of thousands miles away from homeland are not necessary.
Even if the stealth means no communications and navigation than radio and GPS then so be it ( in spartan rudimental form )…or just a map on you lap.
Speed brake is integrated in the fuselator.
Certainly few percentage of fuel ( internal ) volume is counted for the structure and other smaller systems ( valves, pumps etc ).
Your problem ( if we wanna go to this line ? ) is that you don’t understand different phases of designing…we are at preliminary planning…not in detailed workplans.
Why not buy some s-400 long range missile? Cost effective. No pilot, fast, very stealthy, maybe longer range than your design.
They cannot shoot down 166 enemies on one flight.
s-400 range is 120 km and alt 30 km; http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-S-400-Triumf.html
I bet 30 300 m ceiling and mach 3 top speed you can avoid s-400 even if it locked on you.