Correct about thickness. However as wing design concerned all 3 airfoils are;
-6 series = optimized for laminar airflow;
-4 indicates minimum pressure area occurs at 40% of the chord (or was it maximum? feel free to check it), which should define a) how and where flow seperation (stall) begins, and the location of the supersonic shock forming at transonic speeds.
-A hypen indicates they are extremely low drag from Cl=0 to design point.
-2 indicates they all have design point of Cl=0,2.While last two digits tell about thickness, it doesn’t affect the wing behaviour all that much. Thicker wing will reach its design point at smaller AOA, but will have poor supersonic performance. Generally speaking, thicker wing will also have higher L/D ratios at low speeds, at the cost of higher drag at high AOA. Thicker wing gets (at subsonic speeds) more efficient as the reynolds number increase. Thicker wing will be less demanding on materials and can be lighter and easier to manufacture, but it can also be heavier due to increase in physical size.
I merely put 64A215 as an example, it was similar enough for the job. As for 64A203 and 64A204, do behave so similarly that without reading the title, you cant tell the difference from their respective data. None of the NACA airfoils are classified, they are present on airfoil catalogues. 64A204 for example is present on my fluid dynamics book from university. And there is no point, F-16 Blk50 supplemental manual is on the net. One can find any and all performance data he wants. If engineers want to classify; they either dont give the airfoil number, or they give it as 6xxx04.
Okay okay..you know your stuff.
A little Googling turns up references to Polish dissatisfaction with LM offset execution, but no details.
In this context it is worth noting that Poland eventually chose M346 as its advanced trainer, shifting training from the US to home soil in the process.
More detailed are reports of broader downturn in US-Polish relations:
Foreign Policy: How Obama Lost Poland
National Interest: Poland and America Need a Fresh StartCuriously neither of these articles mention wikileaks despite revelations generating noteworthy lines from Polish PM Tusk to effect of illusions dispelled regarding nature of relationship.
In any case there is nothing here that would seem to preclude F-35 buy, but certainly the political picture seems to have evolved somewhat beyond the environment in which the F-16 selection was made.
Poland is a 40 000 000 people nation. They can afford few F-35s easily; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poland
It would’ve been nice to have this thread without the nonsense.
F-35 would certainly be the favoured candidate giving the rumoured timescale. Other contenders Gripen E/F, Rafale, KF-X.
For those more familiar with the political scene, is there any possibility of PAK FA being considered?
Poland has a long tradition of indigenous aeroplanes. Why can’t they make one on their own ?
lol. clever
conflicts with who?
Sorry not so clever…..conflict with anyone…seen the speeded up history of europe on video/YouTube ?
I recall Yak-9Us or some later models were seen over Berlin….later in the war ( I checked it ).
I would imagine USSR was like an anvil and allied strategic bombers were the sledgehammer in reshaping the Germany and forcing them to surrender.
Wasn’t the P-47 in more visible role over Germany ?
Wasn’t Poland a satellite already for 50 years. I bet they don’t wanna go to moon. Somehow I figure after massive land gains in the west after WW II Poland might have revenge against USSR in mind ( which doesn’t exist so.. ). OTOH I am no expert in polish affairs. What happened in KATYN definitely won’t stay in Katyn as we all know ( old phrases won’t apply ). I think they just want to have outstanding AF to protect them from future conflicts and stay in touch with developing techniques.
At sea level aircraft fly proportionally too fast to make this relevant, as Cl increase is linear, but Cd increase is more exponential: I couldn’t find 64A204 but lets take 64A215 airfoil, its similar to the F-16’s airfoil, but thicker and does not have LE flaps:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]225576[/ATTACH]
(Though this graph made by to CFD modelling there are inaccuracies; there should be minimal CD increase between 0-5 deg AOA following the parabolic behaviour of the graph)
Lets take this airfoil as the F-16’s airfoil;
For an F-16 blk50 (27,87m2 wing area) flying with 50% fuel + 4 missiles (12690 kg) at sea level (air density = 1,2)
Level flight at M0,5 reqiures 0,23 CL. this (coindicentally) happens at 0 AOA, and with minimal drag coefficient. As drag is also multipled with wing area, having smaller wings is beneficial and will create less drag. This will help in level flight accelerations.
Turning at 9G at M0,85 requires: 0,72 CL. This happens at 5 deg AOA; still at very low Cd. Low Cd multipled with low wing Area results in low drag, which explains the impressive sustained turn performance of the F-16. If F-16 had bigger wings, it would only increase its drag, and lower its sustained turn performance.However when same aircraft reaches 30k feet (air density = 0,35)
Level flight at M0,5 requires 0,98 Cl at 10 deg angle of attack; this corresponds to 0,02 Cd; Now the Wing Area becomes important: IF F-16 aircraft had 33% larger wings; it would have required ~0,75 cl and had 0,01 Cd: This 33% increase in wing area and 50% decrease in Cd would actually resulted in 33% LESS draggy aircraft (despite being physically larger), directly improving acceleration.
Turning at 4Gs at 30k feet would require 1,27 Cl at 15 deg AOA resulting in 0,06 Cd (note that this is not entirely accurate for the Real Life F-16 has LE flaps which would decrease the Cd). If F-16 had twice the wing area; it would have had only 0,01 Cd; and be 300% less draggy;
Wing Loading also tells about how much available lift aircraft can produce; At M0,85 Clmax= 1,5; F-16 can pull 5Gs at best, resulting in 10,3 deg/s instantenious turn rate at 30k feet. Greater the wing area, greater the instantenious turn rates.
This all comes to optimization and engineering choices: Current small wings of F-16, are optimal at Sea level, but inferior at 30k feet. Slightly enlarging wings would improve both maneuvering and acceleration performance at high altitude, at the cost of low altitude performance. Enlarging wings too much would horribly worsen the low altitude turn, acceleration and climb performance; worsen high altitude acceleration, but improve high altitude turn performance. And I am talking purely about aerodynamics; an increase in deadweight would also decreased payload and further increased the drag etc etc.
With ever increasing payloads; smaller winged and lighter aircraft have more drastic increases in wing loading;
When we fuel an F-16 and Su-27 at 50% fuel load; they will have 383 and 338 kg/m2 wing loading respectively. However if we are to add 3 tons of fuel/payload; they will become; 490 and 387 kg/m2 respecively. Remembering the formula above; this means, F-16 will require 28% greater lift coefficient to achieve same turn rate; Su-27 will only require 14%; Considering Cd increases exponentially, that means there will be huge performance drop for F-16 while both accelerating and turning; but -aerodynamically speaking- Su-27 wont be affected at all while accelerating; and only a slight performance drop while turning. That is if we are speaking about high altitude.
In simpler terms smaller the aircraft gets, greater the Cl requirement will become with equal payload. Wings stay same; so there will be greater AOA requirement; and lower L/D as in this graph.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]225577[/ATTACH]As to add to the discussion; let me try to explain how wing loading, T/W, and other factors can be used to *roughly* estimate and compere maneuverability: look at F-15; F-15 uses NACA 64A203 airfoil, very similar to the F-16’s 64A204.
At 50% fuel clean, F-16 has wing loading of 383 kg/m2, whereas F-15 has 285 kg/m2. Wing’s Low AOA behaviour is the same, but F-16 has Clmax of ~1.6 at M0,5 maneuvering conditions F-15 has 1,1; due to lack of LE flaps it stalls earlier.
Remembering this formula: Wing loading * aircraft G load = 1/2 * air density * Lift coefficent * airspeed^2
45% less Clmax + 26% less wing loading means F-15 will have less available G and less instantenious turn rate by 8% at sea level. Obviously this is no coincidence that FM data shows at M0,5 F-16 can pull 24,2 deg/s and F-15 22 deg/s, 9% difference.
As wing behaviour is similar due to similar airfoils; 26% less wing loading = 26% less necessary Cl at 9G; We can assume (albeit a little inaccurrately) that means 26% decrease in Cd. F-15 has 202% greater wing area (read = drag) of F-16, it has 63% greater static thrust. All relations are linear; so multiplying all relations will tell us; F-15 will have 91% Sustained turn performance of F-16; Real numbers are 20,5 vs 21,5 respectively; 5% drop in performance.
As Su-27 uses different airfoil such estimate about STR is not possible because we simply dont know how Cd changes; We can however estimate Instantenious turn rate:
Compared to F-16; it has 15% better Clmax; and 11% less wing loading. Knowing this; means we can estimate 24,2*1.11*1.15 = 30,8 deg/s ITR at M0,5. But that would result in greater than 9Gs; Truth is Su-27 achieves its highest ITR at M0,48 (30,2 deg/s); That is still an accurate estimate.
Here is the STR graphs of 4th gen fighters compared to F-4E at 30k feet when clean 50% fuelled:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]225578[/ATTACH]
I understand the numbers at the end refer to thickness of the foil ?
So 64A203 is only 3 % thick where as 64A204 is 4% and 64A215 is 15% thick..entirely different wing with entirely different flight caracteristic and drag etc. I think there is a reason why can’t find them…they are classified.
Perhaps he hadn’t seen the P38s?
I wonder if a man his age was able to make a difference between a P-38 and P-51..most likely he saw Yak-9 anyway.
Will James Bond buy the Balmoral with 30 000 salmonds ?
[ATTACH=CONFIG]225704[/ATTACH]
Sounds like a good deal to me.
Golf range at front looks a OK.
http://www.golftoday.co.uk/equipment/features/james_bond/bond_golf_and_me.html
So here’s a bit about Boxkite engines. Most original Boxkites were equipped with a seven-cylinder 8 litre 50 hp Gnome rotary.
Shuttleworth’s Boxkite has always had ‘flat’ engines, currently a Rolls Royce Continental of 100 hp. The apparent excess power of the replicas does not translate into whizz, but is a function of the different nature of engines and use then and now – but that’s another story…
Have you found the wing area yet ?
—
Edit; http://www.rotecradialengines.com/customers/Boxkite.htm
Ok here we go…10.86 kg/m2…about same as Solar Impulse…or 2 kilos more !
Thanks folks. Where was I? Busy! But glad to be back, and pleased to have been able to help on a couple of threads. Here’s a bit more modern Boxkite history.
The Boxkite was first flown by an RAAF team last year, and we have since had some limited subsequent testing.
This is a (rather dreadful) photo of the first official flight, straight line, about 1,000 metres. It was dusk (on 11 September 2013) as winds lower than about 8 kts were wanted. There had been a couple of hops in the am to get a feel for the aircraft and some idea of control effectiveness, and a hop just prior to this flight to see the length of ground run (which is very short).
Much relief all around that day, but there was more activity to come…
Regards,
Surely an interesting project James. What is the wing area and weight of that BOXKITE ?
How about this as a 4 seater ?
I don’t know for later f-16s, but SAC document for f16a block 15 shows a graph where maximum nonafterburning altitude for 24000 lbs plane is around 45.000 feet. for the same plane weighing 35000 lbs its around 35.000 feet. but i am not sure if the graph means the weights are take off weights or actual weights at the time of highest altitude.
Is this why the japanese made their F-16s bigger to fly higher without AB ?

Ceiling 18 km; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi_F-2
It’s not clean unless it’s hydro, somewhere someone is burning your granny, oil, wood, coal, uranium to generate the ” clean” energy it uses. And the damn batteries certainly won’t be green either when disposal time comes around.
Cessna 172 is way too heavy to be an efficient solar plane or even electric transport.
I think Jukka Tervamäki’s idea when developed into a 4 seater could take a long way as a hybrid solar/electric ac.
Gee.. take another look at this vid
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-N4v3ZslqA
Some of these turns are out of this world..
And the interesting part here is that the TVC are used to supplement the Control surfaces.
The result is a higher sustained turn rate and less drag from Control surfaces..The Su-35S has a higher wing loading vs the Legacy Su-27, still the Su-35S comes out favorable.
Improved FCS is one of several reasons for this.Also, People tends to forget the main role for the Flanker design, namely as a long range Heavy interceptor class fighter. It can carry ordinace for a long duration, it can carry a lot of ordinance and Heavy ordinance, it can fly pretty fast on less ordinance config.
It can Climb very Nice.. well my point is the Flanker design from early 80’s was way Ahead of its time, this bird has very little cons on its performance chart.. bar the RCS.
And the list just keep going.. Su-33, Su-27UB, MKI, Su-34, Su-35S.. The T-50 as the latest evolution. All those different roles in the same design Family.
God bless M.P. Simonov!This vid was at the MAKS 2011, and i was there. I saw the F-15E doing its usually highspeed corners turns and the smaller nimble Rafale as well. They were both impressive but still.. you gotto hand it to the much larger Flanker, its aerodynamics are a work of art in itself 🙂
There is no reference in this video…I point out the first one. What is the wingloading on SU-27 ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-27
It gives 378-491 kg/m2.
F-16 loading is 430-689 kg/m2; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Dynamics_F-16_Fighting_Falcon
There may be a bit edge with SU-27 after all.
F-16 has 10.6 kN/kg as SU-27 10.45 kN/kg thrust to weight ratio..so F-16 has a bit edge there.