Spitfire9A BAE spokesman said the redundancies would go ahead whatever the decision on the contract. This is partly because most of the Typhoons would be made in India.
In other words; the 3,000 jobs in the UK are of no concern because we (BAE Systems) would get a huge chunk out of the 20,000+ Indian jobs made possible by selecting the Typhoon anyway. And, Indian employees would be much cheaper to employ with just as good skills the UK force would have had.
Everyones a winner…Apart from the poor sods that’d lose their jobs in the UK.
Just curious. How would a large number of BAE Systems employees be involved in local production except on a temporary basis? Wouldn’t HAL personnel be used for production?
By the way, whether Dassault or Eurofighter are selected, to which Indian entity would technology be transferred? And which Indian entities would be responsible for future upgrades using the technology transferred?
Spitfire9It was always end of 2012 …
Ashish
mmm… from the India Defence article:
2011-10-03 In a press conference in New Delhi, the Indian Air Force chief Air Chief Marshal NAK Browne revealed the following:
Final operational clearance for HAL LCA Tejas has been delayed by one year.
Now why would an Air Chief Marshal say Tejas FOC was delayed if it wasn’t?
Regarding the article to which you link, it says the following, referring to IOC:
After getting the clearance, the LCA will take several flying missions and after that it will have to obtain its Final Operational Clearance (FOC) to be ultimately inducted into IAF’s operational service, which is likely to happen by the end of 2012, Ministry officials said here.
Perhaps those Ministry officials were aware that testing would be delayed, so pushed the estimated date for FOC back to end 2012.
Spitfire9Before jumping the gun based on the rather terse “FOC delayed by one year” statement which has no dates mentioned, I’ll wait for a more detailed report. The original FOC date was always thought to have been December 2012, and now as per Shiv Aroor’s report
So unless the original FOC deadline was Dec 2011 (which is not possible anyway, its only a couple of months away), achieving FOC by Dec next year, is hardly news at all !!
It’s not possible because there is a delay in supplying aircraft. The original target date for FOC would not have allowed for that delay, would it?
Spitfire9The days of controlling what weapons go on what fighters is quickly coming to a close. UAI (which is also a NATO standard interface) will allow countries to integrate their own weapons (as long as their features are covered in the spec).
Sorry to be lazy and not check but earlier this year didn’t LM make a belated offer of F-35 which was turned down? IIRC the reasons for turning the offer down were published. What HAS changed (not what MIGHT change) to alter things now?
Spitfire9@Teer – thanks for your explanations of how things are done in India and how that affects an industry where India has the possibility of becoming a player on the world stage – production of sophisticated fast jets
Indian defence projects don’t suffer from irresponsibility and lack of accountability, they suffer from red tape. India is a developing country, and…
… each and every decision ends up being scrutinized by many agencies and decision making gets complicated with many stakeholders, each with their own interests.
… But red tapism remains in allocating funds and making a rigid procurement structure agree to quick decisions. That is a significant cause of delay and will remain so.
Mmmm… not good. 🙁
Coming to cost & time delays – for all these issues, the local programs invariably provide more bang for the buck.
Good. 🙂
If indigenous projects are partially crippled by a “developing country” approach yet still provide “more bang for the buck” than buying foreign, just think what could be achieved if the procurement system were altered to avoid many of the self-inflicted problems that now beset it!
I don’t recall what LCA + Kaveri R&D have cost but I think it is less than US$5 billion equivalent. That would be cheap had India started with decades of experience in fast jet design. IMO to get where LCA is now starting from scratch is quite a phenomenal achievement at that cost.
Spitfire9With reference to when the commercial bids will be opened, the Deccan Herald contains an article saying that the opening “is likely to be delayed till November or early December as the Ministry of Defence (MoD) is bogged down by some clearances it is required to obtain.”
http://www.deccanherald.com/content/194381/delay-likely-aircraft-bidding-process.html
The article states that according to sources in the MOD the bids expire at the end of 2011. There is no chance that would be allowed to happen, is there? Surely some agency would step in to cut through the red tape and fast track things to ensure that the bids did not expire.
Spitfire9You might want to check on some of the facts before impugning Krishna by implying that he needs to keep quiet as a quid pro quo. The journalist was angling for a bite and the officer didn’t. That’s his prerogative. Give him the dignity he deserves, and not go jumping at shadows because someone tried to bait him & he didn’t reply line and verse.
Fair comment. My apologies if I came across as criticising this individual without justification. My criticism wasn’t levelled at him in particular – it was levelled at the culture of irresponsibilty and lack of accountability that seems to pervade Indian defence projects. Things don’t get done on time, do they? The reason for this is usually (but not always) that people didn’t do things on time yet there seems to be no reaction when that happens.
Spitfire9Report on the IOC phase of the Tejas leading to induction into squadron service..
The report mentions a 9 month delay on supplying aircraft:
The user trial for the Indian Air Force (IAF) version of the light combat aircraft (LCA), Tejas, is expected only by the end of this year or early next year.
The trials will be conducted by the Bangalore-based Aircraft and Systems Testing Establishment (ASTE), a wing of the IAF.
Speaking to a group of journalists who visited the facility on Wednesday, ASTE Commandant Air Commodore B R Krishna said: “Two of our pilots are already acclimatised to flying Tejas as they have been trained; we can begin the trials once the designated aircraft are handed over to us. We expect this to happen by December or January.” Krishna had told Deccan Herald in February that the aircraft were due in March-April, but refused to comment on the reasons for the delay in receiving them.
Not worthy of comment? I can only guess someone / some entity screwed up somewhere. One doesn’t want to point a finger at the guilty party, does one? No, much better to keep your mouth shut. You never know, you might need them to keep their mouth shut if you screw up!
It continues:
Tejas, which will replace the Soviet-era MiG-21 (type 77), is scheduled for final operational clearance by the end of next year.
Is that 9 months later than it needed to be due to the delay in supplying aircraft? Or will “the end of next year” become autumn 2013?
Spitfire9@Spitfire9: Think of it this way; LM was planning a production capacity (speed of th moving production line, ability of suppliers to meet need, etc) of 80 F-35As each year (just USAF jets, not Partner nation jets). The DoD reduced it’s planned order during the beginning years that allows Japan’s (or anyone else) order to bring to produced placed back up to 80 a year.
OK, got you, thanks. Supply = same; demand = less; therefore production slots available.
Spitfire9Due to the recent slowdown of F-35 production there are plenty of production slots open in the 2014-2020 timeframe.
I don’t follow what you are saying. Less supply of F-35’s 2014-2020 with demand remaining the same means more production slots open? Surely it is the other way round. Unless some potential customers are reluctant to pay the premium price for slots (lower rate of production = higher price) and defer acquisition until they can pay a lower price.
Spitfire9Or may be because its cheaper and a better A2G/Anti Shipping platform ?
Cheaper: should be
Better A2G/Anti Shipping platform: definitely (at the moment)
But being a better strike aircraft counts for little if the main requirement is an aircraft with air superiority capability.
Spitfire9More or less, the fact is that IF the proverbial Sh**t hits the fan the “cavalry to the rescue” force will be composed of US Navy Carriers, Marines and the USAF, not the Luftwaffe, the Royal Navy and the Foreign Legion… So its quite understandable that Japan maintains close ties with the Pentagon and the US Defense Industry.
Cheers
Yes… but selecting the best air defence fighter available to you reduces the risk of needing to call on the cavalry to rescue you. And you still have close ties with the Pentagon and the US Defense Industry if you don’t buy everything from the US, just nearly everything.
Spitfire9Yes, the defense minister himself, the dam thing is that i can remember identical claims from the Japanese MOD when they were choosing the substitute for the Mitsubishi F-1 and Panavia thrown an evolved Tornado at that request.
Cheers
Thanks for that clarification. Perhaps the Japanese are just addicted to buying US. Not so different from a smoker who announces that he has decided to give up the habit then 5 minutes later reaches for another cigarette… 🙂
Sempre no Algarve. Ja 3 meses agora. Estou talvez viciado. Preciso ir embora mas cada dia penso porque não ir embora amanha… 🙂
Spitfire9The layers and depth of the American/Japanese Alliance are enormous, i would be very surprised if the Typhoon his chosen
I don’t have time to check but didn’t someone representing the government earlier this year say that Japan was moving away from its “buy US, only US” policy on military aircraft? Just asking in case you happen to remember better than I.
Spitfire9Is Japan genuinely open to buying non-US if the alternative is better? If aircraft A (US source) and aircraft B (non-US source) were evaluated and aircraft B were judged 2% better, would Japan order aircraft B? Or would aircraft B have to reach some unknown threshold of being 10% better (or 20% or 30% or…) before Japan would choose it rather than a US product?
I think I read on flightglobal.com that Japan for the first time in 56 years is not producing any fighter aircraft. F-2 production ended 27th September. It seems to me that the offer by Eurofighter for full partnership with total freedom to develop the Typhoon as Japan chooses wins hands down over an offer to assemble Super Hornets.
As for Typhoon v F/A-18…
F/A-18 is an old design. Typhoon is newer, with greater potential for development over the decades it would spend in service.
Typhoon is better where A2A is concerned. Japan wants an excellent A2A aircraft (ideally F-22). Typhoon/Rafale are considered to be the next best in the A2A role.
I don’t see how F/A-18 competes with Typhoon in the Japanese context. Are Boeing still relying on a predisposition to buy American or do they think they can win on price?
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