#Ozair
Thanks. That sounds like a good deal to me.
Any news on the projected cost of the ex-RAAF aircraft? This deal could be good for both customer and supplier at quite a low cost. I guess Australia would scrap them if Canada did not buy them so no pressure to get a high price. Any money received would be an unexpected financial boost to Australia’s MOD.
Unfortunately Halloweene we can’t compare the acquisition and operating costs of both because the French didn’t submit a valid bid in the Belgium tender. Had the French decided to submit as per the tender guidelines we would have had a valid comparison given it is the first time the aircraft would have gone head to head. Yet the French withdrew and declined to answer the RFP.
I wonder why…
Probably because Belgium will follow the Netherlands in procuring whatever the Netherlands procured, which was not Rafale
Northrop proposes canister-launched UAV for E/A-18 upgrade
Re: Turkey wanting to buy Harriers…
Turkey first approached the United Kingdom about the purchase of Harriers but then turned to the United States for the AV-8B in the inventory of the US Marine Corps because the aircraft have not been used by the UK armed forces since 2010.
I was under the impression that years ago the UK sold its redundant Harriers and spares thereto. For peanuts IIRC.
Just checked –
Britain sells 72 Harrier jump jets that were scrapped in defence cuts to the US in a deal worth about $180m
Mmmm… the stupidity of whoever manages UK defence: 72 used jump jets sold for about the price of 1 new generation jump jet. Result: no jump jets available to use on the new UK carrier.
A group of F-22aircraft flying Alaska-Hawaii used less fuel than a control group flying at a lower speed
The concept of increased speed, although seemingly counter-intuitive, was first explored by the 618th Air Operations Center in 2014. They discovered that flying at a higher speed could save total fuel consumption and flight hours, but it still needed to be proven in action.
To demonstrate the concept, one cell of F-22s and an accompanying tanker for refueling, flew at a higher velocity, while the other cell flew the standard profile and acted as a control group. Throughout the five-hour flight, researchers collected multiple data points in order to compare results from both cells. The faster cell was able to cut about ten percent off the total flight time and six percent of the fuel required for this type of aircraft re-deployment.
Surprising to me. Good news – get to the target area more quickly with more fuel reserves. Wonder if F-35 might also be capable of this.
The Rafale deal has been singled out for mud-throwing is because its an easy and obvious mark. The unprecedented manner in which the deal was pursued as well as Reliance’s reputation for crony capitalism (and lack of engg. experience) gives it a degree of resonance with the public.
It doesn’t help that Dassault, instead of tying up with any one of half a dozen local defence engg. companies (like other aviation majors), chose to partner with a Reliance company, with core competencies in construction & power, and a certain reputation for shady business practices.
I know it is very politically incorrect to query the Indian way of doing things if you are from a background such as mine – non-Indian – but bowing to the god of political correctness does nothing to foster sensible thinking. Indian military hardware procurement was beset by the problem of corruption. I need to ask if that has really changed. Awarding a contract to company A due to agent B being paid a bribe happened. Is it any less bent if agent B, instead of being paid a bribe, sets up a company in order to receive the benefits that would otherwise have accrued from a bribe?
How is Reliance qualified to be involved in Rafale for India?
Got a question regarding spares if anyone cares to answer it:
If an OEM wins a fighter contract and delivers frames and initial spares to a customer, does the customer subsequently buy all further spares particular to the type from the OEM at the price set by the OEM or can the customer buy direct from the company supplying the OEM with the component used in the aircraft?
I have the cost of Typhoon spares in mind when posing the question.
Does the Bahrain F-16 order mean any Typhoon order is out of the question now?
According to this, The Typhoon would be cheaper as a lot of people speculated at the time.
https://theprint.in/2017/12/01/rafale-deal-govt-passed-option-buy-e59-mln-unit-cheaper-eurofighter/
From the article –
The price: €138 million per unit for 126 Eurofighter Typhoon aircraft against the €197 million for each of the 36 Rafale jets New Delhi agreed to buy from Paris.
While it is extremely difficult to unravel deal costs to see what the actual aircraft themselves cost, I would expect the unit cost of a batch of 36 frames to be considerably higher than that of a batch of 126 frames. What would have been the unit cost of 126 Rafales or of 36 Typhoons? I doubt whether anyone not party to the sales negotiations will know.
This selection is clearly a very politicised one, and allowing the public to decide means that none of us have a clue what the outcome will be.
What makes Switzerland’s selection unique is that the public can legally stop the government implementing any fighter replacement decision it has taken. The Swiss defence ministry must be very aware of this and have to strike a balance between what is the most appropriate aircraft on political/industrial/performance/cost grounds and the risk of the public rejecting that evaluation.
But the fact is, Switzerland does not need a bomber…
Indeed. Has Switzerland ever bombed anywhere? I think it’s about as neutral and unaggressive as a country can be.
…and does need something to intercept intruders quickly and cheaply.
Agreed. Gotta be quick and (being sensible) gotta be cheap to give it the best chance of avoiding being vetoed.
Boeing took the SH from the 2008 competition, they´ve already stated that this time they are going to compete.
Was that not due to its size? IIRC Super Hornet does not fit the protective bays used to protect Hornet and the cost of enlarging the bays was expected to be too high to be acceptable. The budget for the last proposed fighter procurement was far smaller than this time round.
I see Gripen E as the sensible solution to replacing both F-5 and F-18 over time – a single moderately priced type to replace 2 types has got to be much cheaper to support than 2 types to replace 2 types. Additionally since Gripen is reported be have the lowest cost to fly per hour of any western fighter it should be comparatively cheap to operate.
I have the impression that the people of Switzerland are not interested in their air force having the shiniest fighter with the most bells and whistles but see a fighter force rather as an undesirable necessity to be bought and used at the lowest cost possible.
Gripen MS21 was still rated inferior, so yes, if Hallow is insinuating that the worst aircraft won, he would be correct.
They don’t want (or want to pay for) or need an F-22, J-20 or PAK-FA. They want an F-18/F-5 replacement. Gripen/F-16/FA-50 might all be adequate. Rafale, Typhoon would be overkill.
Ueli Maurer isn’t there anymore etc.
Et alors (so what)? Are you suggesting that the defence minister at that time did not give an informed and honest opinion of what was best for Switzerland capability/cost wise? Or are you perhaps suggesting that another decision maker might not give an informed and honest opinion of what is best for Switzerland capability/cost wise? It seems very unlikely to me that Rafale or Typhoon have become more cost effective in a combination of performance/cost terms than Gripen E. If anything the de-risking of Gripen E (it is in production now but was not during the first evaluation) makes it even more compelling than it was during the first evaluation.
Croatia expected to choose between Israeli F-16 and Gripen as MiG-21 replacement by end 2017