Spitfire9Also to notice that in the same issue. The ACM of the IAF, Fali H Major states this – ‘When we start evaluations, the aircraft should have what we asked for’ – note at the start of evaluations not when the stuff is delivered. This for me will rule out Gripen NG and Eurofighter as AESA is one of the stated requirements and neither have one ready at the time of evaluation. In short it points in the direction of the American Jets and Rafale.
It would be curtains for the Typhoon and Gripen, agreed. This appears to be a low risk strategy (little risk of LCA-style developmental delays).
Which other contenders actually have a functioning production AESA apart from the F-16?
Spitfire9PS; i’ve found this on another site
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/dae/articles/communiques/FighterCostFinalJuly06.pdf
The average unit procurement cost of fighter aircraft produced in the NATO area is $112.43 million, and varies in a ratio of almost 3 to 1 from $62.1 million for a Dassault Rafale C, $ 68 for a JAS Gripen,$118 million for an Eurofighter to $177.6 million for a Lockheed F-22A.
The prices given are basically flawed for comparison purposes: they include sales tax / value added tax at local levels eg fighter A is sold for $50 million + VAT @ 10% (total = $55 million), fighter B is sold for $50 million + VAT @ 30% (total = $65 million).
There is no VAT on exports, so fighter B costs no more than fighter A to a foreign buyer. Purchases by the government of the country in which the aircraft is assembled may attract VAT which is payable (nearly all of it) to… the government of the country in which the aircraft is assembled.
Spitfire9?!
Ante, please check the facts BEFORE posting…
The EUROFIGHTER GMBH offer to India does indeed contemplate an AESA set.
Contemplating an AESA set? It seems to me that one of the problems with the governments in the Eurofighter program is a lack of early commitment to developments that would make the aircraft more competitive on the international market (A2G weapons, AESA etc).
The stupid thing is that the Eurofighter governments are bound to fund them sooner or later for their own aircraft but will end up paying a higher price because production runs will be smaller due to failure to acquire as many export orders.
Out of curiosity, has Dassault developed conformal fuel tanks for the Rafale allowing an increase in range?
Spitfire9this blond from Huston
Would that be from Huston, Txas?
Spitfire9Tehran Times Political Desk
TEHRAN — Iran has completed the design phase of its stealth aircraft, the commander of the Iranian Air Force announced here on Sunday.
Iranian military researchers are now working on building small prototypes of the aircraft, Brigadier General Hassan Shah-Safi told reporters in Tehran.
The preliminary stages will be finished in late March and then production will begin, he stated.
Analysing Iranian claims is always made difficult by the poor and often fairly stilted English in official Iranian news reports. But one significant comment made by Shahsafi was that Iranian experts have “designed and manufactured the aircraft in a one-seventh scale”. He did not say that this had flown. So it could be that what is about to fly is not a full sized aircraft, but a 1/7 scale model.
Good luck to them getting the model off the ground. Sounds to me that even if it should prove to be stealthy, it will only be a stealthy model.
How long to scale up from 1/7 scale to 7/7 scale? 5 years? 10 years? Never?
Spitfire9If you can name another country with as many bases around the world in all different countries intermixing with all different cultures you’re quite welcome too as are you quite welcome to name another country with the same cultral and ethnic diversity as the United States, be warned it could be very very tough…
I think its most obvious to all but the most anti american folk on here that what Spitifre9 stated was complete tripe.
I’ll just ask a few questions:
The Commander-in-Chief of the USA was unaware thet Islam has 2 main streams of belief… true or false?
Iraq is a country with both Sunni and Shiite communities where under Saddam Hussein the Sunnis held sway… true or false?
Pre-invasion of Iraq: when asked by the Brits what plans for occupation the USA had made, there appeared to be none… true or false?
The USA was advised by the Brits that proper plans for occupation were required… true or false?
The USA declined to make proper plans for occupation, believing that once liberated from the brutal dictatorship of Saddam Hussein peace would ensue… true or false?
What has happened in Iraq following its military defeat is an object lesson in how not to go about occupying a country. I would say the same whichever military power had behaved so.
I think that invasion of Iran (should the USA embark on such a venture) would likely result in an even more unsuccessful outcome.
Spitfire9Iran would be a slightly more difficult invasion prospect then Iraq.
Perhaps it would be extremely difficult to invade. After a “successful” invasion guerilla resistance would take decades or generations to subdue. US occupation of Iran would be doomed to failure: the US does not understand societies with a different culture and disregards the advice of allies that do.
Yes but would need less convincing as Zionists are prominent across the two parties. 😉
It is a danger that American Zionists would not care how impractical and costly in US and Iranian lives an invasion of Iran would be.
I’m a little confused about the original news posting…they are just conducting wind tunnel tests but this aircraft will be in full production by the end of March…so basically in less than two months? Seems like a rather agressive schedule!
—–JT—–
Might one approach be to build a squadron or two of undeveloped aircaft, then spend a few years getting the design right before producing more?
Spitfire9I think you may refer to this latest news report, dated 28 Jan, 09. As per the report, EADs will also redesign the undercarriage of Tejas, as it is deemed overweight.
Thanks for the link to The Hindu report, from which I quote:
The EADS will offer its expertise in reducing the weight of the LCA’s undercarriage. (overweight by at least 1.5 tonnes).
I don’t believe the undercarriage is >1.5 tonnes overweight. The ADA website gives the empty weight of the entire aircraft as 5500Kg.
Spitfire9In my view, if EADs successfully redesigns Tejas’ undercarriage, then it would have 2 extremely important benefits :-
1) As in Gripen-NG, it would result in significant weight reduction and space for 2 more weapon stations.
2) As in Gripen-NG, it may result in increased fuel carriage also.
OK I’m not well informed but I did not know that the EADS involvement was greater than input into flight testing. Why would EADS be asked to redesign the undercarriage? I would have thought that India had the expertise to do it alone.
Spitfire9It wasn’t designed as a Mach 2 cruiser like the B-58 but as a low-level attacker more like the F-111 in mission.
I’m no expert but I would say you are completely right. It was to have a terrain following navigation system (the first aircraft with this facility?). You don’t need that at 50,000 ft, do you?
Spitfire9A decision should be made at the beggining of next year flight evaluations are to start in April May, during the Indian summer. Which is ideal. cus if things are to break it will break then lol.
Typhoon is too expensive and has iffy commitment from its partners regarding the Captor E and A2G, if it had the latter two then the former may have been less of a problem.
I agree that it’s expensive. I think that the lack of a clear strategy on AESA and the leisurely rate at which A2G systems are being integrated are its biggest handicap – enough for many to decide that it is too expensive for what it can definitely offer in the near future.
Spitfire9Hmm EADS and not Dassault, SAAB or Boeing.
Err will we be seeing the Eurofighter in Indian Colours
A lot of LCA’s have been flying around for a long time now. I presume that there is a lack of flight testing expertise or there would not be a need for a foreign consultant to get involved. Which foreign consultant provides that (presumed) missing expertise is not that important, is it? The important thing is to move the project forward as fast as possible.
It’s not bad news for EADS if the company is able to get the LCA job done in reasonable time and in the process establishes a working relationship with the parties involved on the Indian side. I don’t see that there would be enough time to establish a close relationship before a decision on MMRCA is made, so I don’t see Typhoon benefiting enormously from this announcement. But that does suppose that it will not take an excrutiating amount of time to reach a decision on the MMRCA…
Spitfire9Here a summery of the Rafale achievments in 2008:
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articles-view/release/3/101684/france%E2%80%99s-dga-details-rafale%E2%80%99s-2008-milestones.html
Thanks for the link. By the way, the article states that the the source is: (French defence procurement agency (DGA) International Development Dept.*; issued Jan. 27, 2009)
Is the text composed by DGA or is it a report by a http://www.defense-aerospace.com reporter? ie an independent assessment
Spitfire9I think that since Turkey is going to get get F-35 it would be better to have a different air superiority aircraft. Buying F-16 to be followed later by F-35 will not give Greece A2A superiority against Turkey: the F-35 is not superior to the F-35 as an A2A fighter! If Rafale has gone then I think Typhoon should be the choice for air superiority.
Spitfire9On a side note : I have heard Indian built Hawks are much cheaper, It was on the news, but i cannot find any links now. Do you know this to be true ?
I remember reading that locally assembled Hawks cost $18 million compared with UK assembled Hawks costing $24 million. I think I read it in Flight online or something similar.
Another report (link below) says HAL Hawks cost $14.2 million against BaE Hawks $20.2 million.
Sign In
