Spitfire9They made a lot of changes to the Mk2 only for the naval requirements, but now that the Navy has made it clear that it only wants a twin engine design, ADA has begun the preliminary design of the twin engine Deck Based Fighter.
So ADA has started work on designing what it thinks the navy wants or has the navy issued a requirement? If in the fullness of time the project is given the green light, will it slow down AMCA development, given that it will mean more design work for the same number of design engineers? Or perhaps the design workload for Mk2 has peaked, freeing designers to work on DBF.
Spitfire9Anyone know how to edit a post please?
Spitfire9Whether or not India develops the Mk1 naval version any further, I hope the current prototypes are tested, modified, tested again, modified again for a multitude of iterations to learn as much as possible about carrier aircraft design (particularly landing gear design) before embarking on designing any kind of twin.
As for carrier fighters, I don’t see much point in considering a twin based on the Tejas Mk2. Better to design AMCA with a spin off naval version IMO and buy more foreign fighters or a naval Tejas Mk2 in the interim.
I hear the Rafale M does not fit the lifts on the current carrier and SH is too large for easy lifting to/dropping from the deck so I hope that IAC1 and follow ons will not make the mistake of designing lifts that are too small for those or F-35C or anaval AMCA.
Spitfire9LCA-Tejas Mk1 Gun trials in 2020
According to a report prepared by the Delhi Defence Review (DDR), Russian Gryazev-Shipunov GSh-23 twin-barreled 23 mm autocannon gun which is locally manufactured by Ordnance Factories Board in India will be going through integration trials onboard LSP-7 LCA-Tejas Mk1 aircraft from early 2020 after gap of 5 years of the first initial ground trials, which were carried out in Nashik in 2015. DDR reports say that apparently due to lack of ammunition of the gun. trials onboard aircraft was held up…
Took 5 years to get some more ammunition? They are kidding, aren’t they? http://idrw.org/lca-tejas-mk1-gun-trials-in-2020/#more-215782 .
Spitfire9India nearing C295 contract go-ahead, Airbus believes
New Delhi’s Defence Acquisition Council gave its approval to a proposed 56-aircraft order for the Indian air force in May 2015. The programme’s first 16 aircraft will undergo final assembly by Airbus in Seville, Spain, with the remainder to be built by in-country partner Tata Advanced Systems.
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/india-nearing-c295-contract-…
If they are quick, the deal might go ahead within 5 years of approval!
Spitfire9According to a July 2019 article in defensenews Su-30MKI assembly was due to wind up March 20 unless futher orders were received.
https://www.defensenews.com/industry/2019/08/15/an-indian-facility-that…
It also reported that production rate was 12 per annum. With 18 more added to the backlog, that should tie the line up until around September 2021. They will not stop Sukhoi production Friday afternoon and start Tejas production Monday morning so I guess there will be no Tejas deliveries from the plant before 2023.
That would leave IAF with 2 Tejas squadrons end fiscal 2019/2020, still 2 Tejas squadrons end fiscal 2020/2021, 3 Tejas squadrons end fiscal 2021/2022 (if Mk1A production runs straight on from completion of trainers at end of fiscal 2020/2021).
If all goes smoothly about 20+ more Sukhois, 30+ Rafales, 40 Tejas (incl trainers) and possibly 20 MiG-29’s will be delivered in the next 2.5 or so years.
If all does not go smoothly (eg Mk1A’s / MiG-29’s are delayed) will IAF still phase out the MiG-21 as scheduled, allowing fighter squadron numbers to continue to decline? What about MiG-27, isn’t that scheduled to go soon, too?
More Rafales (at $2 billion per squadron?) still seems a sensible, albeit expensive, move to me.
Spitfire9Thanks for the info.
As far as I can make out past and planned HAL production is
project start to end fiscal 2018/2019 16 x Mk1 IOC
fiscal 2019/2020 16 x Mk1 FOC
fiscal 2020/2021 8 x trainer
fiscal 2021/2022 16 x Mk1A?
fiscal 2022/2023 16 x Mk1A?
fiscal 2023/2024 16 x Mk1A?
fiscal 2024/2025 16 x Mk1A?
fiscal 2025/2026 16 x Mk1A?
If the assembly process uses the current line and does not start until fiscal 2026/2027 I don’t see how IAF is going to have any Mk2’s delivered before 2027/2028.
I think a further production facility is needed and Mk2 should be built there. This would also allow India to take advantage of any potential export orders for Mk1A or further Mk1A orders if Mk2 or MRCA are late (or MRCA is cancelled a la MMRCA).
Spitfire9No way a new Rafale order will emerge anytime soon because of any delays to this Mk1A contract.
Hope you are right and I am wrong. Time will tell. In any event it is not just the multi-year delay in LCA deliveries which has brought IAF fighter levels to a critical low. How long did the MRCA/MMRCA fiasco last, delaying the induction of 6 or so fighter squadrons by many years?
the IAF is hoping to see movement on the 114 MRCA deal,
To be realistic, when would the first be delivered – 5? 6? 6+ years from now? I am aware that it could be done more quickly but chances are it won’t be, will it? When has anything been done quickly involving fast jet production in India?
Of course the additional line mentioned with a capacity of 4 frames a year could have been implemented and 2 seat Tejas production undertaken there, allowing production of an extra squadron’s worth of FOC Tejas to follow on from the current batch. Sadly I fear it would have been asking too much to expect those running things to think about things in a mildly organised fashion.
More Sukhois/Rafales stll needed, it seems to me. Call it a risk reduction move.
Spitfire9The red tapism in the MoD is truly frustrating.
Expensive, too.
The Tejas Mk1A order not being signed despite 2 years of negotiations over specifications and haggling over costs shows how dysfunctional the procurement system is, given how badly the IAF needs those 4 squadrons of Mk1A jets.
I may be wrong but my guess is that LCA delays will result in a further Rafale order. Given the circumstances (IAF being in dire need of fighters due to India’s inability to organise LCA procurement), it is a seller’s market and Dassault will be able to exact a high price. Incompetence can be a very costly luxury.
Spitfire9HAL already has its hands full with the existing orders that it needs to supply to the IAF. There are 123 Mk1 and Mk1A fighters that need to be delivered to the IAF as soon as possible.
I have suggested for years that production capacity be increased to at least 20 pa. Has it reached the promised 16 a year yet? I don’t mean is it about to reach 16, I mean has it? Promised schedules have meant very little where LCA is concerned.
More detrimental is the political tension aspect. The GoI may no longer look at Malaysia as a “friendly” country to which to export a fighter that will be a mainstay IAF fighter for the coming 3 decades. Unless Mahathir Mohammed backtracks on his UN statement, I don’t believe the GoI will want HAL to respond to the RFP.
Based on historic performance, failing to respond will probably save all concerned a lot of headaches.
Spitfire9The question of Israeli sourced equipment on the Tejas Mk1A is interesting. It does seem that the Elta 2052 AESA will be used on the Mk1A, but Malaysia will want all Israeli equipment to be replaced with other kit. Uttam AESA is an option, but integration will cost money and whether it’ll be ready in time for Malaysia isn’t clear and there is the other issue that it isn’t a radar in service with the IAF. So they’ll sort of have to be the launch customer for it. The second item is the Elbit DASH HMDS. Integrating a new HMDS will also take time and increase the cost. The third is the Litening LDP, which is very widely used with the Tejas Mk1 and will be standard equipment on the Mk1A too. Damocles will be an option, but again, integration will be required and it costs time and money.
This reduces the chances of a deal from very bad to infinitesimally small IMO. Waste of time and money quoting unless HAL wants to gain experience practising how to process an export inquiry.
Spitfire9MWF-Tejas Mk2 will be 4.5++ Gen plane with 5th Gen Avionics
http://idrw.org/mwf-tejas-mk2-will-be-4-5-gen-plane-with-5th-gen-avioni…
Spitfire9From the article:
The Rafale and Tejas on their own, however, will not be enough to solve India’s air power conundrum. The IAF’s present fighter fleet stands at thirty squadrons, of which six are obsolescent MiG-21/27 and one is a fledgling Tejas Mk.1 unit. The force stands to lose at least six fighter squadrons over the next 5 years. Meanwhile, in terms of firm contracts, the IAF will add a total of only six new squadrons over the same time frame — three additional Su-30MKI units will be raised by 2022, the first of two Rafale squadrons will stand up in early 2020 followed by another in 2020-21, and a second Tejas squadron will probably be established in 2020.
If there is not a big delay in delivering the Tejas FOC batch, there will be a big break in LCA single seat deliveries starting next year. I suspect that the 80 or so Mk1A aircraft will not be ready to go into production for quite some time. I understand that, almost unbelievably, the order for 83 has not been signed yet.
The solution seems obvious to me: order and knock out another 30/40 Mk1 single seat FOC aircraft to allow retirement of more MiG’s. Of course lack of planning may mean there is now insufficient lead time for the supply chain to produce components fast enough to continue assembly without a break. Same old story of being too slow, too indecisive, too late.
Spitfire9HAL eyes first foreign sale of Tejas as Malaysian air force shortlists contenders
http://idrw.org/hal-eyes-first-foreign-sale-of-tejas-as-malaysian-air-f…
Not sure when Mk1A will go into production. Would Malaysia want to risk ordering a fighter that had not already entered service with IAF?
Spitfire9Austin – link works for me if pasted into browser but not from this page
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