Spitfire9I would say that the rising aeronautical nations should
(a) avoid a design that competes with F-35
Any joint design approximating to F-35 would fall short in many ways. For South Korea and Turkey what would be the point – they are getting F-35.
(b) avoid a design that competes with AMCA
The market for medium weight twins is likely to be limited. If one country is already embarking on such a design, why fight for a share of a small market?
(c) aim at designing a 5G aircraft that would be the right replacement for F-16
Cheaper to develop with the largest potential market. No design for such an aircraft exists so a manufacturer could have the largest 5G market with no direct competitor.
Spitfire9The F-35B is already into it’s 2nd lifetime of ground testing. This is why they are not worried about current flight ops as any bulkheads that need redesign/patch/fix will be addressed during a normal Block upgrade.
Thanks for the link. As to how many aicraft will be affected, this ventures an answer:
“The costs and time frame associated with fixes to the current F-35B fleet are not known at this time,” according to the statement. “Depending on when the appropriate engineering solution is incorporated into the production line, about 50 F-35Bs will require bulkhead repairs.”
Spitfire9On-the-ground stress testing for the U.S. Marine Corps version of Lockheed Martin Corp.’s F-35 jet may be halted for as long as a year after cracks were found in the aircraft’s bulkheads, Pentagon officials said.
Testing of the fighter’s durability was stopped in late September after inspections turned up cracks in three of six bulkheads on a plane used for ground testing, said Joe DellaVedova, spokesman for the F-35 program office.
The previously undisclosed suspension of the stress testing…
Mmm… LM being rather unopen about the problem: bulkhead cracks found in September 2013.
Edit How many aircraft that are already built, are currently being built are affected?
Spitfire9It is still to early to say if the F-35 becomes cheap enough to become the “new F-16”, or if many of the countries currently operating F-16 will switch to something cheaper.
If they want a modern, cost-affordable Western jet, what else is there than the Gripen E? Rafale/SH/Typhoon will be too expensive for those countries, if the F-35 is too expensive for them.
The F-35 will never be a suitable replacement for F-16 IMO. If it were The Netherlands would be proposing to order it in greater numbers. Denmark would have selected/ordered it. South Korea would have selected it rather than F-15 (F-35 was more expensive). Canada would have ordered it if it were cheaper than F-18 (which F-16 is).
As for F-16 I can see it having 2 competitors in the coming years – Gripen (already a competitor) and Tejas MkII (from early/mid 2020’s). Both are closer to F-16 costwise than F-35.
Spitfire9$1.2 billion over 30 years (approx) is $40 mil/yr. Relative to the $60 billion a year budget, its hardly unaffordable. And that the money will be more than recouped through the F-35 program workshare (which will likely shrink if F-35 orders don’t come through from the MoD).
I think the MOD budget is currently about £25 billion a year (~$US42 billion at current exchange rates) and scheduled to go down for the next 2 years. I’m not sure how the UK workshare of F-35 can be increased/decreased significantly subject to UK F-35 orders.
For how many hours of its 6000 hour life will a fighter-bomber engage in combat at all? That doesn’t mean the aircraft’s capability ought to be downgraded. In this case, the F-35 is the safer bet for the next three decades, covering air defence, air superiority, interception in addition to the roles that it will be unsurpassed at – SEAD/DEAD, EW and deep strike. Plus being bankrolled primarily by the US military over a huge build order, its upgrade/support will probably be a lot cheaper too.
The UK is procuring a mix of Typhoon and F-35B ie it will be able to use either/both aircraft in any campaigns in which the UK becomes involved. I am suggesting that should the RAF find the cost of operating F-35B to be much higher than Typhoon spending constraints could result in a higher number of Typhoons being procured and a lower number of F-35B’s. Were it critical to the UK government that the UK had the ability to conduct large scale SEAD/DEAD operations on its own I could see a case for cutting other capabilities to buy more F-35B’s. That is not the case so a Typhoon/F-35B mix that soaks up funds that could be applied to other capabilities (land, sea or air) does not make good sense to me. Whichever of the 2 aircraft costs less through life could be ordered at the expense of the other IMO. Of course F-35B orders for the UK carriers must be ring fenced but I don’t see an absolute requirement for more than those.
Spitfire9LOL tht’s even less than what will cost a single A330 MRTT to taxpayers.
And why should you have extra MRTT? Because you’d need to go en force to deal with the IADS without stealth assets.
So, What you shld say on a pure logic basis is that operating more 35 will save money.
For how many hours of its 6,000 hour life will an RAF fighter-bomber be used to penetrate sophisticated air defences? Not many. If that is required the RAF will have some F-35B aircraft it can use. Alternatively it can use Typhoon with standoff munitions if running the guantlet of enemy air defences is considered too risky.
Spitfire9Is operating cost the main driver for fighter procurement? I would have thought the MOD have a good idea what they plan to procure and its unlikely to include more Typhoon.
I agree that the MOD almost certainly do not plan to procure more Typhoon. However, if it transpires that F-35B costs $10,000 per hour more to fly than Typhoon then every squadron of F-35B (say 20 frames) will cost $10,000 x 20 x 6,000 more than Typhoon over a service life of 6,000 hours = $1.2 billion. It may be that the harsh reality of defence spending limits will make it necessary to choose to operate more of the less expensive type and less of the more expensive type.
Spitfire9I’m interested in finding out when assembly is scheduled to finish in each of the partner countries given current orders. Could anyone point me to a source, please?
What would happen if, for example, the Spanish FAL completed its orders and shut down then an export order was secured by Eurofighter Spain which would have meant the aircraft being assembled in Spain?
Spitfire9A second batch of Typhoons could end up replacing 35-40 year old Tornados – and increasing force size at the same time.
A further order from Saudi Arabia could extend production by another 1-2 years. That would give the RAF time to assess the operating cost of F-35B and if it turned out to cost a lot more to fly per hour than Typhoon perhaps F-35B numbers would be curtailed in favour of more Typhoons.
Spitfire9“Please attack only during office hours”
😮Or like this ?
Seems to me it makes all that agonising over which is the right choice of fighter to defend your airspace a bit pointless if you are not going to defend it anyway.
Spitfire9… there is Eurofighter that has price dispute for past 4 years in major export country…
That’s because the buyer failed to organise local assembly. What was Eurofighter to do? Pile all the long lead components up in a warehouse while the cost of assembling 48 Typhoons more than the contract stipulated was agreed?
Spitfire9SAAB as yet undecided on what Gripen version to offer to Malaysia
Abbreviated translation from article in French: “It is too early to say if we will offer the Gripen C/D or the new Gripen E”, says Dan Enstedt (CEO of SAAB Asia-Pacific).
The article adds: Other sources seem to signal that it is the C/D version on offer to Malaysia.
Spitfire9SINGAPORE: Saab looks for additional Thai Gripen sale
Spitfire9ROME — Eight months after the Italian parliament suspended new orders of the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF), members of the country’s biggest political party may try to halve the total purchase.
A source within the center-left Democratic Party said the members were preparing a policy document for approval in parliament which could seek to cut Italy’s planned purchase of JSFs from 90 to around 45. The country has already reduced its total buy from the originally planned 131 aircraft.
But a second source said that debate inside the party is still continuing, and that the final document may merely threaten a cut if Italy does not obtain better conditions on the U.S.-led program.
Both sources said the document — which could be ready this month — would strive to make Italy invest in the multirole, ground attack version of the Eurofighter. Italy, a partner in the Lockheed Martin JSF program, has hitherto shown relatively little interest in the European plane.
First time I’ve heard of anyone being interested in the Typhoon for its ground attack capabilities! Politics, politics… but ultimately politicians decide what gets funded (and therefore procured). I guess the tack is that Italy has already ordered a large number of aircraft with ground attack capability, so why buy a load more? I’m confused about the idea of investing in the multirole, ground attack version of the Eurofighter. As there is no ground attack version of the Typhoon, does this mean financing earlier integration of A2G munitions? Financing integration of extra A2G munitions? Perhaps it’s just talk from politicians who know next to nothing about the Eurofighter and F-35.
Spitfire9First Indian MiG-29 Fighter Jet Lands on Vikramaditya>/B>
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